<p>Because in some contexts, the barriers between people do come down. Unlike solo running, some parents here are talking team sports. Parents do get excited, do encourage their kids and others, are willing to let some of the starch go and roar with the crowd. My kids were lousy at sports. I still heard some positives from others when she did lean in. In this case, we’re not talking about headline parents who go nuts.</p>
<p>It’s not that hard to say, Yay, Susie!, when Susie isn’t your kid, or moan with the crowd when a shot is missed. It’s interacting. Big deal? No, not in the grand scheme of things, but it connects people. I compliment other parents’ kids. Why not? </p>
<p>There is very little of what young children do on a daily basis that matters a whole lot. It’s doesn’t matter much if they do or don’t color outside the lines, if they do or don’t get rowdy and break an old vase, if they get a 50 or 90 on a third grade spelling test, or if they are distracted and strike out every at bat in a little league baseball game or hit two home runs instead. Similarly, there are peccadillos teenagers may commit on any given day that have little to no long-term significance. If they forget to re-fill the gas tank in your car, if they get a C instead of an A on that honors history test, if they skip their last class in order to go to prom shopping, or if they blow off a soccer team practice because they just don’t feel like going that day, the long-term consequences will be negligible if any. However, one reason we teach kids to reliably obey minor rules like “Don’t play near Grandma’s knick-knacks,” is so that when we say “Don’t play with matches” or “Don’t drink and drive,” they heed our warnings. We train and discipline them for their safety and well-being, and for the safety and well-being of others.</p>
<p>In the same way, we help them develop a habit of hard work and dedication, responsibility and commitment, honesty and trustworthiness for their long-term success and well-being. It’s not that each individual thing is oh so crucial, such as a track race one Saturday in April, but the collection of lots and lots of little things forms a consistent life pattern that does indeed matter long-term. What some parents don’t seem to understand is they can’t suddenly demand that a 16 year old study hard, show up to their job at Wendy’s when they’re scheduled, and come home before their curfew if the parents have not seriously demanded anything of them before then. Caring about whether they study properly for that third grade spelling test or whether they play their best for their Little League team is one aspect of training them to care about what does really matter in life. </p>
<p>Furthermore, we can’t always predict what small actions and decisions will have important consequences for them. Suppose the one day Sam decides he doesn’t feel like playing hard in his lacrosse game is the one day the coach of his dream school shows up incognito to watch him play? Suppose the teacher whose class Sarah cuts for prom shopping overhears Sarah’s classmates talk about the fact that Sarah isn’t really sick but went to the mall, and now the teacher writes a less enthusiastic college admissions essay for her? Sure, even these things aren’t the end of the world, but the point is a kid’s habits and behavior patterns have to be molded gradually and over time. Many parents wait too long until some random time when they think it does matter, and then it’s too late.</p>
<p>There’s something about the focus on competition in sports that invites critique. I’ve done it myself sitting in the stands watching high school football when my kid, who was good at the sport, missed a block or didn’t follow through on a play. Sometimes it just because I knew he could do better. And sometimes maybe it’s just that acknowledging mistakes is a way of evening out some of the praise that “stars” on the field get. And, to be perfectly candid, I think there might have been a little bit of humble brag at play in some cases, too. </p>
<p>As I’ve been cooking and contemplating this issue today, I was struck by the fact that I while I don’t see the problem with some less-than-positive parental critique of play in a sport, I could never imagine grumbling “well, she sickled her foot on that move” or “she missed that note” while watching D dance or play the flute. I just enjoy the performance. Maybe sports do bring out the worst in me. </p>
<p>Interesting diversion from the thread this sports talk</p>
<p>It is clear that some parents provide objective feedback on performance. The good, the bad, and the ugly. </p>
<p>You get a question wrong on a test and it is relatively easy to diagnose what happened and figure out what to do. </p>
<p>Sports are different since there are different variables sometimes outside your field of view. Miss a critical pass? Was the setup wrong? The pass? Anything you could have done or would Beckham have missed it also. Having a view from someone in the stands can provide that feedback</p>
<p>Others just want to provide trophy medals and trophy feedback for participation which is fine if the goal is not to provide any meaningful feedback</p>
<p>I think it is a straw man that parents who provide feedback to their child (besides nice game!) are necessarily “emotionally invested” in the game. </p>
<p>One can be disappointed in an outcome without being disappointed in the player </p>
<p>Perhaps I’m being unclear here. I’m not doubting the values of consistency and commitment. I’m wondering why if a particular kid doesn’t show consistency and commitment, why the parent needs to acknowledge it publicly for the benefit of other parents. Because that’s what bothered GFG in her first post - it wasn’t just that the track-running daughter let down the team by not following a rule and hence losing time (which I agree is wrong) - but that the parent didn’t publicly acknowledge or apologize for it. </p>
<p>“isn’t it possible to support your child with your presence and encouragement without having to actually be emotionally invested in the outcome of the game?” I suspect it’s possible, but it’s very, very hard to do. You say game and probably mean sport. But what if the game is school or something else incredibly important to your child and thus to you. Let’s say your kid gets accepted to excellent college XYZ because of his/her excellent mind, organization and work ethic but once they get there only a few get to graduate and the rest just say they attended school. Your kids are looking like attendees but desperately want to be graduates and you know they could be but sometimes they really just don’t do so well. How’s your emotional investment now? I’ve seen enough of your posts to know that you’re a successful businesswoman. Isn’t a big part of that because you win more than you lose? You perform better than your competitors? What would you really think if you’re mom told you she thought it was just great that you’re out there when you knew you screwed up a job? My kid plays D1 team sport and I haven’t met a single parent who’s totally sanguine about their kid’s performance. For sure, some handle it way better than others, but no one doesn’t really care. It’s stupid, really. We ought to be happy simply because our kids have gotten this far, but for many of us it’s about succeeding in whatever arena we value and expect to succeed. I think many content, successful adults find their niche and sort of pull out of the rat race and do well in our own little worlds, but for kids who fancy themselves as smart or athletic or both they sort of have to climb until they fail and sports just happen to be very open to the public and a zero sum game – there are losers. Academics not so much. And please don’t tell me you don’t care how your kids do in school, that you’re just happy for them to be there, 3.8 or 2.0 it’s still passing!</p>
<p>“Others just want to provide trophy medals and trophy feedback for participation which is fine if the goal is not to provide any meaningful feedback”</p>
<p>Isn’t it the coach’s job to provide the feedback though? I have a different role as a parent. </p>
<p>I have a friend who is an excellent runner who serves as my de facto running coach. He can say to me “you should consider trying xyz” and I’m receptive to that. My spouse can’t say that though :-). His job is the high five and the hug. And part of that is his “acceptance” that it’s my goals that count. </p>
<p>Some people recognize the value of getting feedback from multiple sources. </p>
<p>What the coach observed may be different from what a parent saw with a stand-eye view and different again from what a team mate saw who was 10 feet away from you. </p>
<p>Even though you have a running coach your spouse may be paying a different type of attention to your efforts and notice that you weren’t drinking as much water as you usually do or that you have a pebble in the bottom of your shoe or that morning you seemed to be favoring your right leg a little </p>
<p>This is one area where we share a similar personality trait. </p>
<p>One reason why performed better in undergrad is because no one was there to look over my shoulder. That and I’ve always viewed people who yelled as rude ill-mannered boors to be treated accordingly. </p>
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<p>Indeed. </p>
<p>One key cause of poor relationships of all kinds is having one or both persons be incessant fault-finders in times and places when that’s not called for. Especially when no consideration is given to the old leadership adage “Praise publicly, criticize privately”. </p>
<p>I’ve always wondered what the incessant fault-finders were expecting to happen when they complain about being de-friended IRL, dumped, or served with divorce papers. </p>
<p>Following this last bit about sports with interest, as parent of possible college recruit and someone who has sat, for years, in the stands watching kids in both high school and club matches. At a certain point, parents of hard-working, talented athletes find ourselves with a fairly good sense of the play, what is going well, what isn’t. We have been watching with many of the same families season after season, year after year. We know our kid’s strengths and challenges on the field, and those of other players. And, after seasons on cold stands, we know when our kid is on, or not, and the same with other kids. Its part of the experience to recognize and applaud the on-field accomplishments of any of the players and, out of respect for the team experience, to acknowledge when our own kid is not having the best game. At this level, these kids want their teams to win conference championships, sectionals, tournaments etc. Wins and losses matter to them and, as their parents who support them, we want them to realize their goals. Yes, it is the coach’s job to tell my kid what he did well and didn’t. But a coach with 20+ players on the bench is not spending a lot of time with individual players. I won’t dissect his game afterwards, but if he truly player poorly so that it impacted the team, I will ask about it. Sometimes there is just something else distracting him, sometimes a small injury nagging at him. In the same way, when he has done something great out there, he will hear the recognition and celebration from us as well as other parents. There is a bond among the parents and there is a fair amount of honesty about all the kids. It is not about us, as I think most of us have enough good sense to recognize the absurdity of our aging, middle aged selves, getting too jazzed up about high school athletics. But we care about these kids, all of them, not just our own (for the most part – there are some kids, and parents, who make me crazy). </p>
<p>It seems to me that in healthy family relationships, there is no need to self-consciously parse every moment of advice, encouragement, evaluation, etc. to sniff out any hint of less-than-correct level of investment. My parents, for instance, get more disappointed when I have an article rejected from a journal than I do, mostly because I understand the realities of academic publishing better than they do. Now, I could sit around and wonder “Hm. Are my parents really upset because they value my achievements, or because they see themselves as living vicariously through me, meaning in turn that I have failed them by not succeeding?” But that would be absurd, not to mention counterproductive. I know they love me deeply, and that they are proud of me. That’s what matters. I don’t need or want to psychoanalyze the hidden recesses of their consciousness to decide whether or not they have maintained the 100 % Pizzagirl-approved level of parental interest in my life. </p>
<p>While I was never any kind of serious athlete, I am also secure enough in my relationship to them that I think I could have coped with them commenting on a below-average performance. I swam competitively for a number of years; one parent saying to another “she’s not going to be happy with that time,” after a race or “oof - what happened on that dive”? is totally typical conversation and not some sort of public shaming. As for their comments to me - both in athletic and academic life, both I and they knew what was a good level of success for me and what wasn’t. I was an “A” student. If I got a “B+” on a test, the appropriate answer would not have been “great job.” Of course, it wouldn’t have been “how could you; now your future will be ruined; you aren’t leaving the house for a week” either, but there’s a lot of middle ground between those two responses. </p>
<p>Geez, saying ‘ooh, she should have had that goal’ is not being overly negative, critical or trying to save face. It’s commenting on a play. I’m not screaming out “Oh you idiot, you’ll be walking home if you don’t do better.” (In fact, I don’t scream out at all, just not my style.) There are some parents who do think every single time their child touches the ball that the other team committed a foul or the ref blew the call. Really? No, your child made an error. And do you know how those parents look to other parents? Like they don’t know the rules and have no grip on reality that their child is just not that skilled. Yes, like they don’t care enough about their children to learn the rules and truly be supportive. </p>
<p>A parent can enjoy the piano concert, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t hear the clunker note and wince, or see the missed step in the dance. Happens.</p>
<p>If everything must be positive and cheery, don’t play competitive sports (where they keep score), don’t go to a school that grades papers and tests, don’t have any losers for elections or parts in the school play. Live the ‘everyone wins’ life. My other daughter is in drama and didn’t get the part she wanted in the play. She cried, I sympathized, but then I told her that I thought she should have prepared more. Did I do that to be mean? No, but if she didn’t hear the truth, she’d go on thinking that she didn’t get the part because she’s not a favorite of the drama teacher. That’s true, she’s not a favorite, but I think the reason she didn’t get the part was she didn’t practice enough before the audition. She won’t get the part next time either if she doesn’t learn from this experience. If you had something helpful to day to your son after he lost the election Pizzagirl, then yes, say it if it would help him win the next election.</p>
<p>I still am not making myself clear. I get that you might say privately to your kid - you seemed not to be hustling out there like normal, is everything ok? It’s the saying to other parents that feels like throwing your kid under the bus. Again, to my example of the 5k - if I heard that my husband had been saying to other spectators “boy, she’s really slow today” or “she’s not giving it her all” that would feel like a real betrayal. That wouldn’t feel hurtful to you all? </p>
<p>I don’t expect parents to discuss with me or in my hearing their dissatisfaction over their child’s performance in any arena. That was not what I meant in my earlier post. Rather, via the chatting that happens during all those hours and days in the stands, parents directly and indirectly communicate their parenting philosophies. They discuss what they allow or don’t allow their children to do, they mention whether or not they went to parent-teacher conferences, they brag about not having any idea what classes their high school freshman is taking, they comment on their involvement or non-involvement with homework, etc. </p>
<p>Simply put, I have noted a correlation between parents who believe themselves enlightened in their total non-involvement and the fact that it’s one of their kids who didn’t stand for the national anthem at the sporting event, who didn’t show up for the game and didn’t let the coach know he wasn’t coming, or who stopped bothering to run after the ball after the first five minutes of the half. There are kids on my D’s school team who work harder trying to avoid doing their training runs than on running. I just don’t get that and would not allow that in my child. If you don’t want to run or play a sport–and I can certainly understand why someone wouldn’t care to–then don’t join a team. Find something else to do that you would enjoy. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for my child or me to be unhappy that an apathetic kid like that is running one of the legs of the same relay as my kid. Apathy in the child is learned from the parent, as these are the parents who think they are right in not caring about something silly like high school sports or an English paper. What’s the big deal? What does it matter? They’re kids! </p>
<p>I am saying that your example is an overstatement of “alot of these kids”.</p>
<p>How many students were in the room when you noticed one student do something? 10? 100? Now, if it were 2 people then your statement “alot” would be consistent. Although you did say a bunch of students, so that isn’t the case.</p>
<p>Some people hear a squeeky wheel and for some reason jump to the conclusion that a lot of wheels are squeeky. They don’t seem to recognize that one reason one notices them is that they are out of the ordinary.</p>
<p>Or in math terms, if you have one data point, it is easy to draw any line through it. LOL.</p>
<p>PG – I think there is a difference between an individual, recreational sport, such as running as and adult for health and fitness, and a team sport in which a lot of the players are quite serious with aspirations beyond high school. Acknowledging your own kid’s errors etc, in a team sport, among parents you have been cheering with, commiserating with etc., is not throwing them under the bus but rather a form of accountability. Same is true for celebrating their successes. </p>
<p>Talking about your kid while in the stands is practically an expected etiquette. There are the parents who stay by themselves because they’re so anxious and provided they join the group after the game and are social they’re OK. But at the level a few of us posting here now are familiar with, it’s expected that you vaguely acknowledge that your kid’s mistake is their kid’s and the teams’ lost opportunity. You don’t yell at your kid, you don’t throw your kid under the bus, you definitely don’t criticize the other kids, you cheer everyone. No one told us these rules; it’s just the way it seemed to us and it’s carried thru high school, club and college. I cannot recall a parent on one of my kids’ teams ever publicly berating or really criticizing their kid. We all know all of our kids are very good as they wouldn’t be on the team otherwise. As for deconstructing performance afterward the only thing this family talks about was apparent effort and attitude and team dynamics – people problems that we are qualified to comment on. This is nothing like one of us trying to find fitness. I would hesitate to call the sport our kid plays an EC – it’s more of a co curricular activity. It takes almost as much time as school and nearly as educational.</p>