<p>@isaacyinn, you’re maybe inadvertently making my point about attitudes toward success, which can be measured by health, family, fulfillment, and virtue as well as income. You are absolutely right that there has been a credentials inflation in the last 50 years where a high school diploma expectation has been replaced by the college degree. However, the next step is not prestigious name, but graduate work, as many employers today want to see a Master’s next to that B.A. You don’t have to go to a “top school” to get a “nice job;” the kids of my friends who went to Ohio State or even the University of Toledo all got nice jobs. They also worked hard and made the most of their time incollege.</p>
<p>I think attitudes like the OP refers to depends on the area that you live in. When I lived in on the east coast this attitude was somewhat prevalent among some families in my community. However, I am careful not to generalize and blanket the entire area with those attitudes. I knew many people who were happy that their children were attending the local college and making progress. These people didn’t care about HYP but rather that their kids went to college which would, hopefully, provide them with a better life someday. Some of these kids went on to graduate school, have successful careers, and are now raising families of their own.</p>
<p>Perhaps it has been the influx of foreign student applications for spots in undergraduate classes that has caused the current frenzy among some parents to obtain top college admission for their children. There is a lot of competition at the top, and parents only want what they feel is best for their children. I do think, that there are many people that get carried away with the craziness for top college admission as though it were a trophy to be placed on the mantle, not unlike the behavior I witness among parents involved in kid’s sports these days. </p>
<p>In the midwestern community where we currently reside the attitude among parents and students generally comes down to practicality and affordability. Many people are not willing to incur excessive debt for college if they don’t have to. I have heard of several of my kids’ friends who chose colleges based on what their family could afford. Some kids are even enrolling in vocational classes in addition to college prep classes in order to obtain a nursing or other technical certificate upon high school graduation. Each year several students apply and get accepted to Ivy league schools and are able to attend. There are also students who apply to top private lac’s and universities. The state schools are still the most popular as they remain the best value for most people in addition to being very good schools. </p>
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I heard in many countries in Asian, e.g., S. Korea, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, China, etc., it has been like this for the past several decades – and the children (and their parents) “suffered.”</p>
<p>I heard from a coworker from S. Korea that in S. Korea, it makes a huge difference as perceived by their young adults (and by the society as a whole) between working for a company like Samsung and working for a “non-top” company there. Maybe we just become more like them in recent years because the opportunity becomes not as abundant as it used to be. Hopefully, we will never become so crazy.</p>
<p>I heard that, except for the engineering majors, it does give a new college graduate with a degree from a “top” college some advantage if their goal is to get into a “top” company like Google or a top finance company. It has been like this for at least a decade I think.</p>
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More competitive AND more bureaucratic – it’s a big business now.</p>
<p>When I was a rising HS senior, I attended a summer program at a University. I had a good time there and wasn’t getting along so swimmingly with my parents at home, so near the end of the program I walked into the Admissions office and asked if I could attend the following year (skipping HS senior year). They looked at my HS transcript, talked to my two summer professors, asked if my parents would agree, and that was it. Done.</p>
<p>The process was profoundly different than it would be today. Today, I probably wouldn’t get past the receptionist at the Admissions office. I was much more involved in my kids’ college application process than my parents were, in large part because it has become a minefield.</p>
<p>With respect to the competition, big business and the minefield aspects, it is possible to just opt of it. There is nothing forcing anyone to follow everyone else. </p>
<p>Our family did not like what we saw taking shape and decided early on our kids would not become part of a rat race against other students. The entire process just seemed so contrived and unnecessary. So, we took a different approach.</p>
<p>After doing research, the first piece of the plan was we eliminated any standardized test, which was not necessary for college admissions. We told our kids to spend that time on activities they enjoyed and for delving deep into those activities. Additionally, if they found they did not like something, just drop the darn thing. In fact, we told them whenever they were astute enough to realize they were not into something with abandon and decided to quit, we would take them out to dinner. Too many kids were just doing stuff and not into the stuff they were doing. We wanted our kids to be different. </p>
<p>We scratched the PSAT, so they never wasted time studying or taking the thing. AP level courses and beyond were the norm from 9th grade. However, they blew off all AP tests; took not a one.</p>
<p>All the time and energy that would have been put into tests were poured into activities they loved. They were free to create, produce, explore etc. and never once entered the rat race of churning out AP test scores, doing college summer programs, science Olympiad, robotics and all that would make them look like every other high-caliber admit student to the top schools.</p>
<p>A deal was made in 9th grade. The deal was they would do the SAT and the minimum required SAT IIs, with the highest level math and science and one humanities being the three (the minimum SAT IIs was two of most schools, but if they were going to spend 2 hours one Saturday doing those, we figured, just do three hours and have an extra high score in there). Also part of the deal is they had to blow tests that they took out of the water. We believed students do not need a zillion 800s to prove they are a worthy; a handful is just fine. </p>
<p>If they agreed to do their part, we would pay for all ECs and anything they wanted to study and explore and do for the four years in high school. They did multiple everything: music, sports, and projects, which turned into businesses that actually make money. In short, they learned major responsibility.</p>
<p>Well, they did their part; we, as parents, did our part (including a few dinners celebrating dropped activities) and our kids never, ever entered the competitive rat race of colleges competing with the other kids. After carefully choosing schools they would like, fit into and which would allow them to be who they are, the final results were multiple acceptances to the super-elite LACs and universities. </p>
<p>I do not recommend this approach to everyone for it could be risky I guess, but we proved, quite handily, that entering the maelstrom is not required to reach the very top. Just have to research and choose what you do very carefully and the kids have to do their part and nail every test they take then add some awesome activities (which they love) executed at extremely high-levels. And, I assume, if the schools one is looking at are not the very top, what we did is even easier to accomplish.</p>
<p>Sometimes, it is good to just say “No!”</p>
<p>That sounds great, awcntdb, but as you’ve described it, I don’t see how this is so different from what a lot of families do, except perhaps the part about eschewing the PSAT, which plenty of people either can’t afford to skip because of the hope of getting merit money or don’t study for at all anyway and just use as a diagnostic. I know that there are parents who force their kids into ECs, or into sticking with ECs, especially if the kid has been doing something for years and has real talent that they are “throwing away,” but there are plenty of students who start off with a lot of ECs and then drop some as their interests change and they decide to focus on just a few. And if your kids were required to take three high level SAT IIs in different disciplines (do most kids take more than that?) and expected to get high scores, they must have been taking a curriculum that prepared them for that, and studying to make sure it happened, unless they were so naturally gifted that they could do so without preparation. </p>
<p>Are the parents who ground their child if he or she gets and A-, force them to do multiple ECs against their will, and demand that they take every single AP class on offer really anything but a thankfully small minority? In competitive high school cultures, how much is the pressure coming from the parents anyway? By the point at which it becomes relevant, kids are well aware of the fact that college is coming, and that there are different types and levels of schools that will be accessible or not depending on how they perform in high school - which, to put it bluntly, is indeed based in part on how you stack up compared to other people.</p>
<p>Frequently, I see the problem as one of unhealthy mindset rather than unhealthy behaviors. There is still far too much focus on a narrow band of schools, and far too much reluctance to acknowledge the reality that things have changed, and perceptions of both the chance of getting into certain schools and the quality of certain others need to be altered accordingly. I also see at times, more among students, but also among parents, a real lack of perspective about what it means for one’s future, or even the next four years, to go to a less elite school or even (horrors) a safety. </p>
<p>On the other hand, there really are things that are expected of applicants to top schools, and if you are a good enough student to aspire to them, and value the prospect of going to them, I don’t see why you shouldn’t suck it up and do some games-playing; it doesn’t have to take over your life, or leave you a walking zombie with no time for pursuing passions or free time. Not to mention the fact that in many cases, the things you do for the “game” also have value for their own sake. There may not be a lot of value added in studying for the SAT, but taking a higher level class also means that you’ve had the opportunity to be enriched by material that is well-worth knowing. And even the vanity service trip to Ecuador, while it may be a transparent and probably futile attempt to shore up a resume, is probably also a rewarding and enjoyable experience. </p>
<p>Thinking back to my own high school days, there are definitely choices I made influenced by my ambitions, and I don’t regret them. I was very, very clearly a humanities student; no one was going to admit me to college on my math and science skills. So I had a choice. I could have taken non-honors level science and math classes and not studied for my SATs, which would have reflected my actual interests and left me with more time - not that I think all of that extra time would have been spent on high-minded literary pursuits. Or, I could take honors and AP courses in all my subjects, if not necessarily the most difficult ones possible (I did Calc AB and one of the easier AP sciences), and put the time in to raise my math score 100 points.</p>
<p>I did the latter, and I’m glad I did. While even as it is, I think the clear humanities focus in my application is what got me into the school I did over a lot of people with “better” resumes, I also am not arrogant enough to think that I was so special that that school, or a lot of others, would have overlooked my failure to take challenging classes in other subjects, or the lower score. In the context of my own school, had I not pursued the honors/AP curriculum, I probably would have wound up teetering on the edge of the top 10%, rather than in the top 3 %. My scores would have been somewhat below the posted average for the school I wound up attending, rather than comfortably above.</p>
<p>Now, I still probably would have gotten into a very good school - a top, rather than “tippy-top” school; at the level of Oberlin rather than Amherst, or Emory rather than Princeton. And I would have thrived, and done well, and might be in the exact same place right now. Or, since my family needed aid, I might have gotten into Oberlin or Emory and not been able to afford them, and wound up in the honors program of my state school, where I could also have thrived, and done well, and gotten to exactly the same place. But as much as I know that is true - and especially as someone who doesn’t totally buy into the notion that all elite schools are absolutely interchangeable in terms of academic quality and opportunities offered - why should I have put myself out of the running for any school in the country I wanted to go to if I was willing to put the extra time in?</p>
<p>Someone with better tech skills than I have can post a link to a couple of NYT articles today. One is on how parents want their kids to be good people more than successful people. The other is on how being involved in your kid’s school life doesn’t help the kid do better. OP, you can send links to this latter article to all the parents who are driving you crazy. </p>
<p>@apprenticeprof - It is a huge, huge difference what we did. We know because we still had to interact with families via the many activities and the stress other kids were going through was palatable. The opportunity costs of the stress is something not to dismiss lightly. That cost is very high and dear to the spirit and the family.</p>
<p>The tests were a big part, but not the only part. Look at the profiles of students at the very top schools and then compare the fact my kids spent only two days (7 hours total) doing standardized tests for the entirety of their 4 high schools years; one day for SAT, and one day for SAT IIs. The stress other students had fretting over which AP course here, which AP course there and preparing of those tests was the literally the talk of every family in activities from 9th grade. The kids were all stressed knowing that for the top schools they needed 5s. 4s meant two weeks of gloom knowing they had to retake. My kids avoided the other kids at those times just to stay away for the negativity of the entire situation. It was a downer to just watch it; could not imagine being part of that.</p>
<p>And the talk about which program was better in which county and how to get their kids in seemed like a full-time job. And all for being able to say they did X at this school or did this summer program. It was like watching 8 people trying to squeeze through a single doorway at same time. We had none of that stress. Never filled out or applied for anything; never had to wait for an admittance or rejection from anything (except from colleges, of course). No competition for governor’s school etc.</p>
<p>But, we went one step further and got our kids opted out of all final state exams because it was easy to show that the high level at which they did their chosen activities exhibited demonstrated ability beyond what the tests could even test. So, no end of the year tests after each grade, no SOLs, no senior year testing to graduate nonsense - none of that. </p>
<p>We also got them opted out of all the fake, mandatory (obviously, not that mandatory) volunteer work. There is no such thing as forced altruism, and I did not want my kids to become fakers and resume padders. So, that 160 - 200 hour requirement to graduate was waived and non-existent for them. </p>
<p>My kids helped others all the time, but just did not do it in some structured way, but the amount of time they sent helping other kids do math homework in the library, for example, was countless. The amount of time they spent helping other kids get better in their sports, by staying behind and going over drills was also countless. They helped set up different activities at church for the kids and played in a couple bands, which entertained at youth functions. They just did it and never put it down in their college application. That is true volunteering of one’s time. No volunteering or community service on their college applications anywhere. Did it hurt them? Not one bit. </p>
<p>I think it was a relief of adcoms to see kids actually doing what they wanted, than want they were told adcoms wanted to see. Their applications had to stick out like sore thumbs. Well, objective one of super-selective college process accomplished right there - get noticed.</p>
<p>And need to add the huge amount of family time we gained from this by not having to do any of the above. That was an immense side benefit in itself.</p>
<p>I do not want to dismiss the importance though that all tests must be darn near perfect and all activities must standout in how they were done. Just opting out is not the key; filling some of the time with more meaningful things is what matters.</p>
<p>@apprenticeprof stated, “On the other hand, there really are things that are expected of applicants to top schools, and if you are a good enough student to aspire to them, and value the prospect of going to them, I don’t see why you shouldn’t suck it up and do some games-playing;” </p>
<p>I totally agree and that is another successful way of doing it. And if it works for you or someone else, then awesome. It just would not have worked for us.</p>
<p>I will say though that the expectation thing of adcoms might be overblown, at least in our case. My kids did get into the tippy-top schools and clearly were not hurt by any preconceived adcom expectations.</p>
<p><a href=“Opinion | Raising a Moral Child - The New York Times”>Opinion | Raising a Moral Child - The New York Times;
<p>Here you go, Lizardly. </p>
<p>I just read the article, and there’s a lot there. I’m trying to unpack it. I like the thought that children reflect what parents do, rather than what they say. That seems to align with what I’ve observed.<br>
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<p>Show, don’t tell.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I’m so thankful I’m not a new parent. My mind boggles at the thought of what the Great American Parenting Advice Complex (GAPAC) will come up with to help parents raise children motivated by guilt rather than shame. Starting with toddlers. </p>
<p>One part of the problem may be incorrect perception of what is and isn’t necessary to get into top colleges in the first place. I don’t know where the idea that volunteerism, let alone massive volunteerism, was a requirement came from - I think it would be easy to see through people who were doing some good deeds to check that off the list, and people who made it one of the few ECs they really committed to. I feel like people saw a few kids with genuine interest in volunteering getting into good colleges, and decided that volunteerism was super important without looking at the context. Same for having loads of unfocused ECs, as opposed to a few sustained ones. In some cases, the prevailing notion of “what the adcoms expect” may be wildly off.</p>
<p>awcntdb, you obviously don’t live in Florida because all the things you listed ARE mandatory - EOC exams, AP tests if you take an AP class (if you don’t take the exam, you must pay $92). There is no requirement for a certain score on the AP tests unless you want to use them for college credit. Community service isn’t required to graduate, but it is a requirement for the Bright Futures scholarship.</p>
<p>I would not reward my children with a dinner out because they quit something. They don’t have to continue with an activity unless they made a commitment (like too a part in the play, or signed up for an activity), but to be rewarded because they quit? Why start in the first place.</p>
<p>My kids participated in activities they like, and they’ve been rewarded with scholarships in those areas of interest. They are happy. I didn’t spend more than I wanted to for the elite club team, but we made the most of the teams we joined and it paid (through a scholarship) for itself, but I would have been just as happy with the experience if she hadn’t decided to play in college. We did it for the experience itself.</p>
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<p>Yep. I think parents (and some kids, too) are looking for a formula along the lines of: certain GPA + certain SAT + (certainEC x certain leadership position) + certain Volunteer Hours + (certain # AP controlled for difficulty level) = certain admission to dream school </p>
<p>Then they’re disappointed when the formula doesn’t work. </p>
<p>Same here re: AP tests. Taking the test was a requirement of the class. There was no opting out of testing. Also, my son didn’t spend minutes, let alone hours, studying for the test. The class preparation alone was enough for him to score well on the tests. Also, I don’t think that his AP scores were part of his application. From what I remember, he only listed the classes that he took along with a notation of whether it was an honors or an AP class. </p>
<p>Our state is not so loosey-goosey with its mandatory testing requirements, either. One friend of D’s, for example, who is a senior already admitted to a top LAC, is taking the state-mandated ACT and PSAE tests in a couple weeks with all the juniors. She missed it last year because she was abroad for a semester, and she will not be allowed to graduate if she does not take it this year. </p>
<p>There clearly is difference here of what is considered possible. I will not name the state for sake of maintaining being anonymous. However, I can say quite unequivocally that it is an error of what is mandatory and what is not. </p>
<p>When needed, we simply went to the top school board and presented our case; even when told we could not opt because it was mandatory. Took all of two meetings and exceptions were granted no problem. We are not the type of family to accept something is mandatory, just because everyone chooses to do it or some school operating manual says it is.</p>
<p>Other families could have done it as well, but they all said the same thing - they did not want to butt heads with the school board or districts and feared retribution on their kids. We saw more acquiesce and fright when the school was the conversation. We are proactive and schools, boards and government bureaucrats do not present any issue to us in approaching. We got everything we wanted. </p>
<p>I think people are not calculating the value of not having to schedule and do things like everyone else. The freedom was impressive to say the least. It worked for us, and my kids never had to deal with the rigamarole of testing and activities we deemed unnecessary. </p>
<p>Like I said, we did something completely different, had no problem challenging stupid “mandatory” rules, and it worked well for us. Our tax dollars are part of what pays for it, and we had no problem defending the use of our money.</p>
<p>Interesting conversation. I can tell you as a mom of a S admitted to 10 schools including 5 Ivies, 2 privates and 3 publics that never in a million years I could see that coming. My son told me when he was 11 that HE wanted to go to an elite school. The only thing I did was to help him become an all around kid, not just books. He found swimming and for the last 7 years committed to club swimming year around, plus varsity and water polo. That was his big and only EC. If anyone knows the commitment of swimming you’ll understand. He did add more than 200 hrs of volunteer on this he enjoyed. Went to public school and HE chose his classes. He chose this college choices and I added a couple I thought would be a good fit for him. This is a boy born with thirst and drive and as a parent I didn’t stop him. I have never had to talk to teachers throughout his school life, he took care of that. He’s now debating between Columbia and Yale and whatever choice he makes it’ll be fine with us. At the end of the day he’ll be the one going to that particular school. Let’s see what the rest of his life brings. Good luck to everyone, let your kids have a voice and let them choose:)) Happy Sunday! BTW, my husband and I are hispanic immigrants with NO college education.</p>
<p>Seems like a lot of effort to get a kid out of state-mandated tests that wouldn’t have required any prep in the first place. But to each his own. </p>
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<p>Ay Caray! Saona, you must know how this will be interpreted along these shores! ;)</p>
<p>@Elliemom - The point was it got them out of everything surrounding what we saw as an education morass. It was not just a test or two or three. But, that is OK, it worked for us and we were like no one else and our family did what we wanted. Again, our tax dollars allows us to have say, not just roll over.</p>
<p>That freedom is invaluable to us; it may not be seen as valuable to others, which I respect. And the effort was simple - two board meetings of 1 hour each. Not much effort at all. And what was major for us is we valued the time and freedom gained. I understand that approach may not work as well for others.</p>
<p>@awcntdb I get the going to the school board part, and would totally been onboard to do so to do away with the required volunteer hours (reminds me of CTY’s “mandatory fun”). But to get out of a test or two or three that would not require prep…well, I guess I don’t see that as a huge deal unless it was done to set a precedent. Of course, that’s up to the individual family. And I tend to have sort of a “pick your battles carefully” POV on things like that.</p>