<p>“One thing I wonder is why so many parents are willing to pay for their kids to be in a frat.”</p>
<p>My H and I both had a great time in our Greek systems. We gained lifelong friendships, learned leadership skills through, socialized in a way we hadn’t been able to do in high school, both lived in our houses, and don’t really regret a thing about it. We both said to our kids that we’d pay for their Greek life if they so desired, and didn’t really think twice. D is at a school without Greek life so the issue is moot for her, but S wound up joining the same frat that H was in (which was kind of neat, though of course he was free to do what he wanted) and I haven’t thought twice about the cost. </p>
<p>"We all heard that as pledges and ceased throwing around the other four-letter f-word.</p>
<p>When people say “frat” it’s like nails on a chalkboard. It also tells us we’re dealing with someone who either</p>
<p>A) was not in a fraternity or sorority, "</p>
<p>Nope. Sorry. I was at a university with a substantial Greek system (roughly 1/3 and strong presence) and we all used the term frats. What frat did you join? Are you living in a dorm, or the frat house? What frat are we doing homecoming with this year? </p>
<p>It seems that in some southern schools, they take offense to shortening fraternity to frat (I’ve heard the expression “much as you wouldn’t shorten country to …”) but up north, the word frat is used interchangeably with fraternity. Don’t go making a universal case out of something regional. </p>
<p>“A bunch of 20 year olds have no business sitting in judgement as to the “acceptability” of a bunch of 18 year olds.”</p>
<p>When I was a freshman and living in a dorm, I formed friendship groups based on mutual interests. I determined that there were other people who were perfectly nice people (and for whom I’d always be polite) but I wasn’t interested in becoming their friend. And honestly, some of them who were loud, or obnoxious, or who I perceived as not very bright or not very nice, I looked down on them. They weren’t “acceptable” for me to spend my time with. What’s the difference? </p>
<p>Let’s say you have a dorm of 80 people, for the sake of argument. It may quite naturally devolve into (let’s say) 8 different general groups. Maybe one group is the athletic group – they enjoy going outside and tossing the football and talking about sports events. Another group is an artsy / musical / theatre group – that’s what they enjoy doing, and they’ll hang around someone’s dorm room and play guitars or go out to concerts together. A third group is the geeky video-game crowd. You get the picture. People in these groups are deciding who they want to spend time with, and who they don’t want to spend time with. It just didn’t happen in a structured process, but it still happens.</p>
<p>Are you equal BFF’s with everyone you know? Heck, aren’t there cliques on CC?</p>
<p>I had a negative view of fraternities after attending Lafayette in the 80’s. Every negative thing that has been mentioned here including alcohol abuse, horrible treatment of girls on campus and student deaths from drinking or drunken falls, etc. took place.</p>
<p>Much to my surprise, my younger son is now in a fraternity at college and having a wonderful time. The group is diverse and does a fair amount of community service. I have been to the small on campus fraternity house numerous times and have been impressed with the brothers I met. So, my conclusion is that not all fraternities are bad; the school just needs to monitor them a bit more closely than was done in the past. I see my son’s fraternity involvement as a positive aspect of his collegiate experience.</p>
<p>I left out some words here…let me try again. </p>
<p>“Another thing that no one gets: a death due to someone <em>requiring</em> you to drink to excess in order to not have to quit the organization is a very different thing than people drinking because they want to.”</p>
<p>Sorry, folks. I was a bit tired this morning.</p>
<p>The author of the article in the OP didn’t mention drinking or deaths as the reason he quit his fraternity, so I don’t know why this conversation has devolved into another of those types of discussions.</p>
<p>The author’s issue was with “slut shaming” and sexual violence. He opened his piece with a description of how “Jeanne” was “made to” feel bad about how many men she (had chosen) to have sex with. (Nonsensical, imo).</p>
<p>“What’s the difference?” I don’t know much about Greek life so this may be wrong. But as I understand the rush process (as explained to me by a friend who had quit her sorority after various bad experiences, there are strict rules governing sorority member to rushee (is that a word?) contact. I believe she said that you were not allowed to spend more than 5 minutes talking to each other. So of course the judgements made were rather superficial. How could they be otherwise? Did you find all your BFFs after knowing them for 5 minutes? Did those dorm cliques form in the first 5 minutes after everyone introduced themselves, and were there serious commitments made to stay in them?</p>
<p>I was in a sorority (legally a fraternity for women) in the 1970’s. Alcohol wasn’t allowed in the house, and it still isn’t today. No one was ever forced to drink or attend a party with alcohol. I’m not saying I never drank, but many people didn’t.</p>
<p>I’m hoping my kids do join a sorority in the next 2 months. Why? I have lifelong friends from college, but also have met other members from other schools as I’ve traveled around the country for jobs and life. It is an instant introduction. It has kept me involved in some charity work that I otherwise would have let slip away. I learned skills that have served me well (I can talk to anyone for 5 minutes, and I know how to ‘hand off’ someone I’m having trouble talking to at a business or social function). My father is 80 and his fraternity brothers are still his oldest and closest friends. They share a history. (They also have a scholarship fund that is providing $2000 each to my children, so I’m fond of the old guys too!)</p>
<p>I think the sorority will be very important for my daughter who is attending a college that is 75% male, where she may be a little lost at first and intimidated by all the brainiacs. It’s nice to hear you are wanted, that you are important, and that you fit in. It’s nice to hear “Hi Mary” once in a while when you are new at school and it seems you don’t know anyone. </p>
<p>I think there are many dorms that are just as bad as the Greeks when it comes to wild parties or hazing, and plenty of drinking at schools that are less than 10% Greek. </p>
<p>IMO, that’s the wrong math to use. A similar approach would show there is no need to wear seat belts for example … after all, the odds of being seriously hurt on any one car trip even without wearing seat belts are incredibly small. However, what is more relevant, IMO, is comparison among alternatives … and it clearly much-much-much safer to wear seat belts. Both facts can be true simultaneously.</p>
<p>A similar thing is happening on campuses … there may not be tons of bad events at frats … but at the few schools for which I know the data the rate of drinking, hazing, and sexual harassment, etc violation is much much in frats than in the overall population. There is an issue that needs to be addressed. Does anyone know a school where the frats have lower instances of these behaviors?</p>
<p>PS - many other groups, like many athletic teams, seem to share the same issue of the group behaving much worse than the general population.</p>
<p>Maybe we should pass laws prohibiting more than four college guys from living together, like they did with women in the old days (5 = brothel). 8-| </p>
<p>I want to apologize for referring to the NAACP as a racist org. Someone said that race-based words are not the same as race-based deeds, which is correct. But getting rid of racist thoughts and words is something worth working for. </p>
<p>Also, I don’t mean to minimize any untimely deaths. I just wanted to point out that Greek orgs are neither the only perpetrators nor the most egregious. This does not excuse any single unfortunate death, of course. </p>
<p>I was in quite a defensive mood yesterday and some beer wasn’t helping. Hehe. I’m not really the sardonic, mouth-breathing jerk I may have seemed like yesterday. I request your pardon.</p>
<p>… And why exactly do you both assume that the traditions of your fraternity apply to all of them? My cousin and brother, who are members of two esteemed fraternities, call their brothers “frat”. Always have, always will. </p>
<p>I wont even address your opinions on the NAACP except to say that my father has long been a member, and if you think it’s a racist organization, you have a poor understanding of what racism is.</p>
<p>@Torveaux:
</p>
<p>What exactly do you fear happening to you when a group that you are a part of is referred to by an annoying term? It’s not what a woman fears when she is called a slut. Women and girls, walking down the street, who refuse to respond to catcalls face violence. Some are raped. Some are murdered. When I’m walking down the street and a man tells me to smile and say “thank you” after he’s objectified me, I do it, because it’s better than what he might do if I tell him to stop. So, please tell me again how “frat” is just as bad or even worse than “slut”.</p>
<p>The structured process and the exclusive atmosphere which tends to result are key issues considered problematic by many who have issues with fraternities/sororities. </p>
<p>In fact, those factors were considered such a negative influence on the college community by the admins at my LAC back in the 1870’s that they instituted a complete ban on them…or any students to partake as members without risking immediate expulsion from the college. </p>
<p>Unless the selection system is based on academic merit like the academic honor society Phi Beta Kappa, all organizations operating on campus must be transparent* and open to all interested students. </p>
<ul>
<li>Part of the ban was also due to the college admins not desiring students to be part of or organizing “secret societies”.<br></li>
</ul>
<p>Wow, that is a lot to take in. I had never heard that not responding to catcalls can lead to rape and murder. I would have expected the opposite result: that engaging with the cat caller is more likely to lead to violence. If I lived in a community like that, I would carry a gun. </p>
<p>I believe the rules on alcohol are very different between sororities and fraternities. IIRC, in many sororities, you are not even allowed to be caught drinking anywhere while wearing sorority clothing. This is definitely not the case at fraternities, or at the very least, I don’t think the rules are enforced as strictly.</p>
<p>I think there’s a big difference between making friends through fraternities and making friends in real life. In real life, my friend groups are more fluid - I didn’t hang out with the exact same set of people my senior year as I did during orientation. But greek membership seems more rigid. There’s usually one specific time when it’s best to join a fraternity or sorority. And although you can decide to join later than everyone else, or change the organization, it will be hard and in some cases impossible. There were certain fraternities at my school that would only accept first-semester freshman.</p>
<p>Also, peer pressure doesn’t have to be as extreme as forcing other people to drink. It might be that you are at a party, originally planning on only having 2-3 drinks the entire night, but because everyone around you is binge-drinking, you decide to join in too. I’m not sure how much this is unique to greek life though.</p>
<p>“I believe she said that you were not allowed to spend more than 5 minutes talking to each other. So of course the judgements made were rather superficial. How could they be otherwise? Did you find all your BFFs after knowing them for 5 minutes? Did those dorm cliques form in the first 5 minutes after everyone introduced themselves, and were there serious commitments made to stay in them?”</p>
<p>Oh goodness gracious. You go through several rounds of parties so you most definitely get to talk to lots of girls over a longer period of time. </p>
<p>And as for me, yeah, pretty much I can discern in the first few minutes of talking with someone whether this is someone I’d like to pursue a conversation / friendship with further, or whether it’s “nice talking to you but no thanks.” It’s just not all that hard. And considering that I’m still spending time with women whom I met when I was just seventeen (you know what I mean), it seems to work pretty well. </p>
<p>And yeah, dorm cliques form quickly IMO. Using the exact same principle. It’s just not formalized, that’s all. </p>
<p>“When I’m walking down the street and a man tells me to smile and say “thank you” after he’s objectified me, I do it, because it’s better than what he might do if I tell him to stop.”</p>
<p>You have got to be kidding. That’s a pretty fearful way of looking at the world. Why don’t you just ignore him and go on with your day?</p>
<p>The sorority does not dictate who your friends are. No one is “BFF’s” with every other member. You are expected to get along with and respect the others. Yes, you can be friends (even BFF’s ) with girls in other sororities or girls who are not in sororities. </p>
<p>Greek systems vary greatly by chapter and by school. I was a transfer student from (are you ready?) a community college when I pledged. This was not at all unusual at my college. My chapter pledged freshman, sophomores , juniors and even seniors. </p>
<p>In my sorority experience, we knew when a guy treated a sister (or any other girl) badly and he became very unpopular very quickly. </p>