88jm19, I clearly stated that where I live this is what I see. That is a subjective expression of my experience. Nowhere did I say that all Asians are anything. I said that stereotypes tend to have some basis in fact or existing tendencies, but that generalizations by definition are broad and thus will not always apply to specific individuals within the group. Watch the video I posted. It represents well what my kids and I have seen HERE.
I am re-posting this link. https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/2015/06/01/college-counselors-advise-some-asian-students-appear-less-asian/Ew7g4JiQMiqYNQlIwqEIuO/story.html Would Chen’s service be necessary if there were not cultural restrictions and prescriptions in place in the Asian community regarding what EC’s are and are not acceptable/beneficial-for-elite-admissions?
@user0509 I am deducing from your posts that you are young (late teens or early twenties). You will realize at some point in your life that nothing in life is absolute nor can any race, ethnicity, or religion be fit into a single description. And that is why @TheGFG statement is wrong and ridiculous. Perhaps in his own mind that statement is true. And he has affirmed it so I don’t find the need to change his mind. But I can assure you with 100% certainty that EVERY Asian parents he met are NOT Tiger Parent. That I am certain.
I really hope that you will recover from your childhood experience and I genuinely feel bad if your parents treated you in any abusive manner.
You are again misquoting me, anamgol.
@TheGFG
I copy/paste your entire post #207. Your own words:
“Are you Indian, Anamgol? I would say that the vast majority of immigrant Chinese parents in our area are tiger parents. In the Indian community I’ve noticed more diversity. Certainly there are a large number of Indian tiger parents, but I have met some who are relaxed about achievement and academics. The parenting style seems tied to their social class. However, I have never met an immigrant Chinese parent here who would not qualify as a tiger parent.”
Where did I misquote you?
GFG, I might (just maybe, perhaps) accept the accuracy of your reported experience if it wasn’t usually framed by how hard other people’s (Chinese) excellence made it for your daughter to succeed. You may be a tiger parent protecting your child, but your complaints about the Chinese are always framed in terms of your losses.
I have lived in China, Singapore, and US cities and towns with large Chinese populations. I absolutely am ashamed by the racism I see on this thread and then the denial of racism. Anyone who writes white people aren’t like this has major issues of denial or racism. Almost 50 years ago, I babysat for a while 4 year old who said, “I want to go to Harvard like my daddy.” I can still remember how my teenage stomach dropped in horror.
People, recognize your racism.
Criticism of a cultural practice does not equal racism. It is perfectly reasonable to say that the classmates of the Chinese students featured in the video I posted are going to have a harder time competing for college admissions than they would if those parents did not enforce such a restrictive lifestyle of studying on their children. The kids in the video are clearly miserable, but all that studying will yield results, and those results will disadvantage kids who are hard-working but are living a healthy, balanced life. Do you think the parental behavior in the video is good or wise? I say it’s neither, and would contend that makes me a compassionate person, not a racist.
@TheGFG
You are way off base in your logic. Tiger parenting is NOT a cultural practice of Asians (or Chinese). Do you not get that? It is not the norm of an Asian culture (any Asian)! Your blanket statement that “However, I have never met an immigrant Chinese parent here who would not qualify as a tiger parent.” qualifies as racism against Chinese since your statement explicitly imply that you view ALL Chinese parents as Tiger parents, which is a horrible label to put on any ethnic group.
Did I make up the concept of Tiger Parenting? No, I did not. A book was written by an Asian woman documenting certain practices. Anamgol, did you actually take the time to find out the facts by following my suggestions? Did you read the article, watch the video, and google “Asian parent videos” and watch a few? Did those Asian students just arbitrarily invent lies about Asian parenting?
Here are Chua’s own words: “I was raised by very strict, Chinese immigrant parents…they demanded total respect and were very tough with my three younger sisters and me. We got in trouble for A minuses, had to drill math and piano every day, no sleepovers…” Chua’s rules for her daughters included no choosing their own EC’s, no report card grades less than A, and no ranking less than #1 in any subject.
GFG, I certainly understand the benefits and limitations of a Confucian culture, but I have never seen you engage in criticism of US cultural practices. Now I have not been reading your posts for those purposes. I am very interested in how you manage your youngest daughter’s (?) needs with the demands of the culture around her. I have similar concerns for my youngest, and often I find you have wise insights.
I know that there are abusive parents of all races, but I do not think that the Chinese (my cultural knowledge) are tiger parents as US parents understand parent-child relationships. The culture is productively more communal and less individual in how it structures relationships between parent and child as well as between members of the community. What this tendency means is not simple, but complexly engaging. Here is an epiphany moment for me. I was auditing a Mandarin class at a university with a lot of Cantonese speakers. As 45 y.o. Me was coming off the subway, a 19 y.o., not that bright, student approached me and, after pleasantries, asked how I did on the last test. I said not too well, and she patted me (a professor) on the arm and volunteered, “you will do better on the next one.” The communal concern with excellence was telling as was her concern for me and my performance. The boundaries between old fart, academic me and her gentle concern were not crisp. I am not sure that having crisp boundaries between parent and child OR citizens of the world is such a great thing. The mutual engagement and desire for all doing their best is wonderous to watch in action.
I have to go to bed, but I wish people would read the world through lenses that assume that there are more than one path of navigation. I learned more about successful parenting from one of my Chinese friends than I did from my own family. I wish people would let go of the Truth for a minute and see the possibilities.
Tiger Parenting existed way before Amy Chua’s book came out and has been in existence in many, if not all, ethnic groups and cultures. Why is that hard for you to admit that? I nor others here never said that Asian Tiger parents do not exist. In fact, we agree that there are Asian TP but we want you and some other posters to not to extrapolate small anecdotes to the general population. What you are saying in your posts are: 'because I only see Asian parents who are tiger parents but not even one white tiger parent and an Asian woman proudly wrote about her Tiger parenting methods, ALL Chinese (or Asians) are (must be) Tiger Parents. From this kind of logic, you are making additional misguided remarks as “Criticism of a cultural practice does not equal racism.” Please stop trying to convince yourself that this is strictly limited to Asian culture, and admit that there are TPs in all cultures around the globe.
mamalion, in this very thread I said that the stereotype of Caucasians as academically lazy had a basis in truth, so I have no problem criticizing American culture. This thread is not about that topic, however. If you wish to start a new thread, I will be happy to comment on it.
I do not know whether some of my previous coworkers who are Korean Americans (1.5 or 1st generation) have tiger parents or not, But I noticed most of them seem to be capable of putting in a lot of high quality work quite consistently. I am not sure whether it is partly due to their growing-up family or communal background or not. (I am not Korean Americans. But I have all the respects toward their above average work ethics.)
TheGFG’s mentioning of “academical laziness” reminds me of this incident: DS once had an online chat with someone across the ocean. A person (actually the parent of whom he was talking to) on the other end semi-jokingly said (in a language he could not understand so he asked for a translation) DS is “lazy”. In our standard, he is not “lazy” by any stretch of our imagination. Maybe in the standard there (say, comparing the high schoolers here and the high schoolers there, even though they were post-college when this happened), he might not be the one who works the hardest. We all had a good laugh at this. (Maybe DS was right when he said that we are indeed not TPs.)
@Anamgol, Is there any potential “difference” between Korean Americans and other Asians that you could share with us? I am all ears (and motivated in learning this.) I agree with most of your posts here. Also, the post 229 by mamalion.
There are studies that have been done to dispel the myth of the Asian Tiger Mom/Parents. From the American Psychological Association —“Taken as a whole, the collection of papers in this special issue suggests several take-home messages. One, although tiger parenting (defined as harsh, demanding and emotionally unsupportive) exists among Asian-heritage families, it is not common. Two, tiger parenting is not linked to the best child outcomes — both academically and socioemotionally. Third, the studies collectively show that there is much more variation in Asian-heritage parenting behaviors and practices beyond being strict, controlling and demanding high academic achievement of their children. Using a range of samples and methodologies, the findings suggest that Asian-heritage parents are also warm, supportive, and loving toward their children, which has not been emphasized (and perhaps even de-emphasized) in the literature. The special issue dispels some of these stereotypical, monolithic notions of Asian-heritage parenting by offering a more nuanced and accurate perspective so that readers can see beyond the myth of the tiger mother.”
Original article —http://www.apa.org/pi/oema/resources/communique/2013/05/tiger-parents.aspx
and http://www.asianscientist.com/2011/05/academia/does-asian-tiger-mother-exist/
Thanks for that apa link sleepless mom. I clicked around to some of the studies and learned a lot. This is a real concern of the apa and they have definitely not dismissed it as a nonissue.
https://www.1843magazine.com/features/the-long-march-from-china-to-the-ivies This link is the OP for another thread on CC and contains some counter evidence of the craze among Chinese parents to do whatever it takes to get their kids into the Ivies, including making their children hold ice cubes in their hands to increase their concentration skills and flying them to another continent for a one-day community service project. The proliferation of Chinese language books on the topic is not coming from American journalists or CCer’s promoting a stereotype. It is a balanced article, because the parents featured are clearly loving and not abusive, yet it reveals strong cultural principles that do not always translate well into American culture. Oddly enough, the article indicates that Chinese parents actually have to be LESS restrictive than before in order for their children to pursue that goal since Chinese culture entails conformity and obedience, whereas the Ivies want to see individuality and initiative.
Twenty years ago, my roommate and I, both Chinese Americans in our thirties, were talking about the increasing hostility toward high achieving Chinese students. She bluntly said that white Americans were running scared. I brushed her off then but now, maybe there is some truth to her statement.
I am stunned by the hostility by posters in this thread and the absolute need to demonize Asians. I’m done
GFG- as i’ve said before- you must live in a very affluent community for the practices you describe to be the norm.
C’mon down to where real people live and you will see Asian Slackers living comfortably among their peers from all racial and ethnic groups. The competitive, uber intense environment you’ve described in your HS is not the norm in the US- whether for Caucasians or Asians or anyone else. You can’t take a look at your own affluent and academically ambitious community and assume that it’s a by product of so many Asian families and their parenting practices, since so many other places in the US with a high percentage of Asian families (like my own-- a very diverse place but not as affluent or academically intense, competitive, dog-eat-dog as yours) have NOTHING like the school culture or emphasis on academic achievement as yours.
Don’t confuse the Asian element with the affluent element.
I have been very clear that this is what I see in MY community. I do not see it among Caucasians here, except in myself and a few Jewish parents. My family is a definite outlier and we are considered pretty extreme in this regard, since my parenting practices–as I have freely admitted in other threads–are tigerish in comparison to other non-Asians.
However, that said, I did not invent the internet “crazy Asian parent” meme, so it is unfair to blame it on one poster who is being honest about seeing it manifest locally. My children had mostly Asian friends and those kids accepted the Asian stereotype as true. Indeed, when my son’s Chinese girlfriend was about to leave for college, she admitted that she had never left our town for anything except to visit cousins in CT, since every weekend and vacation day she was made to study at home.
Secondly, the fact that the meme exists and that college counselors like Chen report having to convince Asian families to diversify EC’s suggests that my community is not the only one who witnesses these tendencies. In fact, we have an Asian student on this very thread who claims that he is the product of tiger parenting and so are all his Asian friends. Is he running scared or racist? MANY posters on CC, including some people with admissions experience, have discussed the “typical Asian applicant” and the fact that there are too many students of that ethnicity who look very alike in their profiles, just as Chen said. That is not me saying it; plenty of people notice a narrow range of EC’s and career goals within this population. Students of Asian heritage themselves come on this board and lament that they are being restricted, and identify the cause as tied to culture.
It is unfair for some of you to act as though I am inventing experiences out of fear or racism. I didn’t want to have to state my credentials again, but my kids did quite well, got into the lottery schools and have well-paying jobs, so no sour grapes here. I am not afraid Asians will take something from any of them, though it’s possible other people may have that fear. That accusation is a cop-out from people who don’t want to admit there is an adaptation problem, despite the fact that Asians themselves are saying there is. Besides, its a huge exaggeration to suggest anything on this thread constitutes “demonizing.” The charge of racism and demonization is a nifty tool to shut down unpopular opinions, to make people afraid to express a dissenting or critical view. From what I’ve seen, CCer’s always acknowledge that cultural practices are not racial per se but arise from socio-economic realities in the home country.
Wash, rinse, repeat…