<p>
</p>
<p>You’re the one who is knee-jerk in pitching Wisconsin as the greatest thing since sliced bread.</p>
<p>Barrons vs. Pizzagirl would be one CC mud wrestling match I’d pay to see.</p>
<p>Wisconsin is just about a mirror image of U of Michigan…with the faculties being even a closer match than the students. And who among us would say W&M would be a slam dunk over Michigan? When Pizzagirl finally sobers up, I’m sure she will apologize to Barrons.</p>
<p>The East Coast bias is so perverse on CC that Barrons’ enthusiasm for his alma mater is needed to counterbalance the situation. Plus, he’s probably a bit sensitive after the 5-0 loss the badgers took over the weekend in the NCAA hockey championship game to a little school called … Boston College. By the way, Northwestern was nowhere to be seen in a beautiful romantic weekend in Detroit.</p>
<p>Don’t accuse me of having East Coast bias. Not only have I lived in the midwest for many years, I attended a school in the midwest, and if you’ve followed the places I’m looking for when it comes to my kids, it’s very clear that I’m looking all over. </p>
<p>I don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to “Northwestern nowhere to be seen in a beautiful romantic weekend in Detroit” - is that basketball related? - but I don’t ■■■■■ for Northwestern in every possible thread or tout it as the Second Coming every chance I get, which is more than can be said for barrons.</p>
<p>“is that basketball related?”</p>
<p>I know Northwestern doesn’t have a hockey team, but that doesn’t take you off the hook for knowing about the biggest crowd to watch an indoor hockey game in the history of the universe: <a href=“http://nhl.fanhouse.com/2010/04/10/boston-college-stifles-wisconsin-to-win-ncaa-hockey-championship/[/url]”>http://nhl.fanhouse.com/2010/04/10/boston-college-stifles-wisconsin-to-win-ncaa-hockey-championship/</a></p>
<p>When the N.U. women have a good lacrosse season, everybody is supposed to stand up, tuck his ■■■■■■■ between his legs, and give the Title IX salute. But 37,000 people fight their way to downtown Motown, and you don’t know about it?</p>
<p>BC has a great hockey program and they were the better team that night. Maybe best 2 out of 3. I’d like to see BC in the next B10 expansion to take over big-time sports on the East Coast. The B10 needs a hockey league within the B10 members. </p>
<p>Nor do I ■■■■■ for UW in every possible thread. Only when it is clearly competitive in the area being discussed. If somebody wants musical theater I’d say Northwestern. But with 70 areas or depts in the Top 10 UW is pretty good in lots of things. But the national hype machine only has room for a few riders at once. When I feel Wisconsin has gotten its due respect I’ll be happy to retire from CC. I’ve been to William and Mary and had HS friends go there. Not exactly a scintillating place. Quiet studious kids in a quiet geriatric town. I don’t find that a slam dunk if you want a bit more out of your college years.</p>
<p>Barrons, like Alexandre, is an enthusiastic advocate for his school. But neither of them ever throws out endorsements without plenty of evidence to back them up.</p>
<p>Schmaltz, I don’t particularly care about the NU women’s lacrosse team either other than in the generic sense of wishing them well, so please don’t construct a straw man that I believe we all need to bow to them, ok?</p>
<p>Barrons: “Quiet studious kids in a quiet geriatric town. I don’t find that a slam dunk if you want a bit more out of your college years.”</p>
<p>And as we’ve discussed on another thread, some people don’t find drunken revelry that takes over a town and results in damaging other people’s property a natural or fun part of college life. I still find it amazing that the capitalist in you felt that it was grandma’s problem if grandma happened to live in a college town and woke up to find her garden trampled, her trash cans missing, vomit and trash in her front yard but hey, that’s all good-natured college fun, I suppose. When lower class kids act like that, they are called thugs but when middle class college kids act like that, it’s apparently called good-natured-college-fun.</p>
<p>I probably shouldn’t have said “clear choice W&M over Wisconsin.” Both are fine schools. Peace?</p>
<p>Well done Schmaltz. You expertly mediated a peace settlement between Pizzagirl and Barrons. Who would have ever thought a Mildcat and a weasel (other than a Wolverine of course) could dish it out thus? Now a mud wrestling match between those two would be worth a page or two in someone’s book. My money would be on the feline!</p>
<p>Seriously though, I don’t think one can compare W&M and Wisconsin. It would be like comparing Cornell to Williams or Northwestern to Carleton. William and Mary has a very different approach and mission to Wisconsin. Both are elite, arguably top 5 public universities, but that is the extent of their similarities.</p>
<p>Except I’m not letting barrons off quite as easily, as once again he’s gotten his facts backwards.</p>
<p>Even in terms of absolute numbers Wisconsin (502k) has almost as many households earning less than 25k a year as do both New Jersey (556k) and Virginia (563), but at the same time Wisconsin’s total population is much smaller than both of these states. Both Virginia and New Jersey have far more “rich” households (150k and up) than does Wisconsin, however. </p>
<p>This tells me that, if anything, RU is doing a great job serving the underprivileged in its state, U-Va is doing less well but ok considering the hand it has been dealt, and Wisconsin is doing an absolutely lousy job. </p>
<p>Barrons likes to say that UW students have to work in disproportionate numbers to pay for their educations than students at other colleges that he considers comparable and that this accounts for its abysmal four-year graduation rate. But where’s the beef? Show me actual statistics that prove the point because UW-Madison’s reputation, even in Wisconsin, is hardly that of a school serving the working class. If UW students really do have to work in disproportionate numbers, I’m betting what’s really going on is that UW, which like U-Va and William and Mary is an expensive school even for in state students, is less generous with financial aid than these schools (at least U-Va, which is need blind in admissions and pledges to meet 100 percent of demonstrated need). You don’t need to be poor or working class to have trouble paying for college. If UW’s relative lack of financial aid explains why so many kids there have to work and prolong their educations, this may be a “badge of honor” on the part of the students (which I’m sure many of them would just as soon remove) but it’s a real blemish on the university. </p>
<p>A truly great university has sufficient resources to be accessible for all. UW isn’t there yet. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0690.pdf[/url]”>http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0690.pdf</a></p>
<p>I am not reading most of the the posts between the OP’s and the ones most recently on the board but would say that I think both schools are ranked more or less equally and have really good reputations among those who know about such things and can see beyond the Ivys. Obviously at the graduate level in many disciplines Wisconsin trumps most schools and might even be considered world-class (and if you get a PhD from there in certain fields you would be dealing with people who know this),but for undergrad I really think you should just go with the one that seems a better fit. </p>
<p>If the economy doesn’t improve by the time you graduate it won’t matter where you went to school because there aren’t many jobs broadly speaking. If you do well at either UW or W and M you should have equally good options whether for jobs or graduate programs in your field.</p>
<p>I agree (ten characters).</p>
<p>It’s much easier to offer aid to the few when most of your students are full pay.
62% of UW undergrads worked during school. Of those 94% worked over 10 hours/week and 37% worked over 20 hours per week.</p>
<p>UW is actively increasing aid through the Wisconsin Covenant and the Fund for Wisconsin Scholars founded by UW alums: [Fund</a> for Wisconsin Scholars](<a href=“http://www.ffws.org/ffws_intro/]Fund”>http://www.ffws.org/ffws_intro/)
UW tuition until the last few years was very low–maybe half what instate cost was in Virginia or NJ. It still is far less (30% less than RU) which means EVERY instate student starts with the equivalent of a $3500 scholarship. </p>
<p>The COL in NJ is far different than Wisconsin. You can live on 25K in Wisconsin. I used the official Federal Poverty rates which include family size and other factors. </p>
<p>With most minority and poor people in Wisconsin concentrated in Milwaukee and southeast Wisconsin (Kenosha/Racine, the UW System operates a full doctoral campus (UW-Milwaukee) and a master’s level campus (UW-Parkiside) that attract the bulk of the UW qualified Pell and minority students in the state as they can save money by living at home, etc. </p>
<p>Proportion of Students Who Work and Hours Worked
Of Those Who Work: % Who Work
Proportion Working
1 9 Hours
Per Week
10 14 Hours Per Week
15 19 Hours Per Week
20 29 Hours Per Week
30 + Hours
Per Week
Freshman
30.9
31.4
50.8
8.2
6.9
2.7
Sophomore
53.6
17.1
40.2
15.3
20.2
7.2
Junior
71.8
14.3
27.8
16.8
29.1
12.0
Senior
81.1
7.0
24.6
23.6
29.0
15.7
Employment (Percent of Respondents)
On Campus
Off Campus
Both On & Off Campus
Total
Freshman
55.2
40.5
4.3
100.0
Sophomore
58.2
38.8
2.9
100.0
Junior
44.1
44.7
11.2
100.0
Senior
38.3
49.5
12.2
100.0
All Students
45.7
45.1
9.3
100.0</p>
<p>If you bring in other state universities, then that hugely complicates things, especially as the Virginia system is so diverse. You would have to take into account UVA-Wise, which is in the Southwest of Virginia - the poorer region, among the many other universities in the state.
And then W&M sponsors a community college system, and I believe UVA may as well. Should those be taken into account?</p>
<p>The UW System is also very large and diverse for a relatively small state. The Wise campus is tiny. UW-Milwaukee has over 25,000 students and is a full-fledged university on its own. Even UW- Parkside has nearly 10,000 students. It is designed so as many students in the state who want to can get a UW System education near their home. Madison is just the crown jewel of the system generally attracting the best students. If you do well at another campus it is fairly easy to transfer to Madison after two years.</p>
<p>“I agree (ten characters)”</p>
<p>Seconded.</p>
<p>When did this turn into an A versus B board anyway?? Better to ask about one school at a time without the versus factor. Get the facts and then decide for yourself. There must be 30 versus threads going.</p>
<p>^ I think you’ve been around the CC block a few times to know that’s how it works.</p>
<p>Aug - Nov: ranking ***** sessions
Dec - Feb: agonizing admissions/what are my chances/where should I apply?
Mar - May: college vs. college smackdowns
Jun - Jul: ranking anticipation, yield and admitted student comparisons</p>
<p>The statistics that you cite don’t prove anything in isolation. We’d need to know how UW-Madison compares to other large state schools. You’re on another thread suggesting that it’s remarkable that UW-Madison students study abroad at the same level as schools like UCLA, Illinois, Michigan State, Georgia, etc., because, you say, the typical UW-Madison student comes from a family in more dire straights. I’d be very surprised if this were true. All one needs to do is take a stroll down State Street; you will find an ample amount of UW-Madison students of obvious means and with plenty of leisure time, just as you would find at any other flagship university. In fact, if you took a poll of Wisconsin residents I’d bet the majority would identify UW-Madison as the school of choice for the state’s privileged residents. UW-Madison does not corner the market on students who have to juggle responsibilities and is not as unique as you think. The major difference between the undergraduate schools at UW-Madison, U-Va, and William and Mary is that UW is larger, less selective, is relatively less diverse, has a much lower four year graduation rate – and doesn’t produce nearly the number of Rhodes Scholars.</p>
<p>Am I the only one who had a very unpleasant flashback to Intro to Sociology while reading #77?</p>
<p>“The major difference between the undergraduate schools at UW-Madison, U-Va, and William and Mary is that UW is larger, less selective, is relatively less diverse, has a much lower four year graduation rate – and doesn’t produce nearly the number of Rhodes Scholars.”</p>
<p>Some schools really push to get Rhodes Scholars. They have full time staff devoted to this quest. Seems like a waste of resources to me for such a tiny amount of students who get selected.</p>
<p>Schmaltz, I agree with you. Sorry for having to lecture barrons on what to the rest of us is Sociology 101, but he doesn’t seem to get that UW is hardly unique. </p>
<p>I also agree with rjkofnovi but, still, it doesn’t matter how hard you try – a school requires an outstanding reputation in academia for undergraduate education in order to win nearly 50 Rhodes Scholarships.</p>