<p>Nova, you are taking two separate discussions out of context and mis-representing them. My discussion of family income levels was focused on comparing UW and UVa (and likely W&M too) which clearly has a much higher average parental income to explain why many UW students work while going to school which may impact graduation time.</p>
<p>The problem, barrons, is that U-Va and William and Mary are hardly the only top schools that trump UW’s graduation rates – and by a long shot. Show me another top school with a four year graduation rate as low as UW’s (barely 50 percent) and I’ll concede the point.</p>
<p>In the meantime, so much for U-Va’s lack of research opportunities for undergraduates in the sciences:</p>
<p>[The</a> Cavalier Daily | Four University students earn scholarships in technical fields](<a href=“http://www.cavalierdaily.com/2010/04/15/four-university-students-earn-scholarships-in-technical-fields/]The”>http://www.cavalierdaily.com/2010/04/15/four-university-students-earn-scholarships-in-technical-fields/)</p>
<p>How’d UW do?</p>
<p>Chump change. Here’s a real money winner.</p>
<p>UW-Madison student wins $250,000 fellowship</p>
<p>April 5, 2010</p>
<p>by David Tenenbaum</p>
<p>Daniel Lecoanet, who will graduate with comprehensive honors from University of Wisconsin-Madison this spring with a double major in math and physics, has won a five-year, no-strings-attached fellowship to pursue graduate studies.</p>
<p>The Fannie and John Hertz Foundation in Livermore, Calif., has announced that Lecoanet was one of 15 winners in this year’s competition, chosen from almost 600 applicants.</p>
<p>Lecoanet, who worked on the internal dynamics of stars at UW-Madison, says he intends to pursue theoretical physics in grad school.</p>
<p>“In theoretical physics, you have the opportunity to understand the essence of what’s going on. There is this process of distilling a lot of experimental information into one clean idea,” he says.</p>
<p>Valued at more than $250,000, Hertz Fellowships allow exceptional applied scientists and engineers the freedom to innovate.</p>
<p>^^^I hear he is headed to Michigan for graduate school. ;-)</p>
<p>Nope, Berkeley, after a year at Cambridge: [UW-Madison</a> student wins Churchill Scholarship (Feb. 11, 2010)](<a href=“http://www.news.wisc.edu/17663]UW-Madison”>UW-Madison student wins Churchill Scholarship)</p>
<p>Hi, I am a male from Northern Virginia attending a small public school. Need to be chanced for William and Mary–</p>
<p>SATs: CR 690 M670 W690
GPA: 3.95 weighted (I know, I know, I blew it).
SAT IIs: Lit 700 USH 660
10 AP Classes by end of Senior Year
ECs: Varsity Swimming (Made Regional Championships); Club Waterpolo; Literacy Volunteering–collected over 5000 books for underprivledged schools; Cappies; Started my own food busines with friends.</p>
<p>Maybe biggest hook: Virginia Governor’s School for Mandarin; and two summers in an immersion program in China with GMU/Hanban. Plan to continue Mandarin in Senior Year & throughout college.</p>
<p>Also need advice about if I should do ED to up my chances, or maybe wait until RD to up my weighted GPA over 4.0. Severely stressed that my grades are going to shoot me down. Please chance me for W&M, and maybe also UVA and VTech. Thanks.</p>
<p>
Wisconsin is not a top 5 public university, nor is it “elite”, generally speaking or when talking about public schools. What, is Michigan State an elite school too? You Big 10 boosters are ridiculous.</p>
<p>The top public schools in the country are Berkeley, Virginia, Michigan, UCLA, UNC and William & Mary in no particular order. Wisconsin doesn’t belong in this elite public company.</p>
<p>^Been a while since I took a standardized test, but the two that don’t belong on that list are W&M and UVA. The others are all prestigious, public research universities.</p>
<p>^UVA is more selective and has a stronger student body than every other public university actually so you’re wrong.</p>
<p>So what? Sorry, but the five others have faculties that blow UVA and W&M out of the water in nearly every single measure. So you are wrong.</p>
<p>Lets look at the numbers.</p>
<p>Mean of the middle 50% of SAT scores as reported on college board:
Reading Math Writing Avg
Cal 650 700 665 671.66
W&M 675 670 660 668.33
UVA 655 680 660 665
UM:AA 640 690 650 660
UNC 645 665 630 646.66
UCLA 625 665 640 643.33
UW:M 610 670 620 633.33</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It seems that UNC, UCLA, and Wisconsin are a large drop below the others in student quality as measured by the SAT.</p>
<p>That would be average quality and UW is larger than all of them except UM which is similar and in a state with far fewer students to draw from while still serving the state with the majority of student slots. It remains that there are a good number of high levels students at UW–as many as at W&M for sure.</p>
<p>But there are other numbers one could look at like faculty quality. Especially in sciences, social sciences and engineering. There you would find UW above or virtually equal to all of them except Cal which is outstanding. You have to dig deep to find UVa or W&M which both lack top level science and engineering faculty while UW also has superior humanities faculty in most (and more) areas of study.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2010.jsp[/url]”>http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2010.jsp</a></p>
<p>^^^Wisky is not equal to Michigan in engineering, but it is a better in the natural sciences. I’d say the overall order in academic quality is: Cal, Mich., UCLA=Wisconsin, UVA, UNC, and W&M. UVA, UNC, and W&M are relatively weak in natural sciences and in engineering (of course that only applies to UVA).</p>
<p>Hence virtually equal overall. A little here one way a little there the other way. But in the overall scheme–on another plane than places like UVa and W&M which was the main point.</p>
<p>
The same could be said of, say, Ohio State. Does that make it as good as W&M or UVA? No. What matters is those who are in classes and discussing with you.</p>
<p>What should really matter is who is in front of the class. Who are they and what are they known for in their field. Who do they know that might help you later. There are plenty of smart kids around–especially in the tougher majors such as sciences and engineering. You know there is not a lot of sitting around discussing things in biochemistry or chemical engineering–not like philosophy where every wet behind the ears kid can have some opinion you get to hear.
While OSU is decent in this regard it is far from the top tier.</p>
<p>I heard there are a lot of lesbians at Williams.</p>
<p>Also, Wisconsin is a good party school</p>
<p>
I’ve often seen UVA placed ahead of UNC, so I did a little exploration.</p>
<p>US News undergraduate/graduate
Business: UVA (#5) > UNC (#7)
Economics: UVA (#28) > UNC (#34)
English: UVA (#10) > UNC (#16)</p>
<p>Biology: UNC (#24) > UVA (#46)
Chemistry: UNC (#13) > UVA (#45)
Computer Science: UNC (#20) > UVA (#28)
Earth Science: UNC (#52) > UVA (#63)
History: UNC (#12) > UVA (#20)
Math: UNC (#30) > UVA (#46)
Physics: UNC (#36) > UVA (#40)
Political Science: UNC (#13) > UVA (#33)
Psychology: UNC (#13) > UVA (#23)
Sociology: UNC (#5) > UVA (#36)
Statistics: UNC (#10) > UVA (#58) </p>
<p>UVA: 3/14, Δ = 4.67
UNC: 11/14, Δ = 19</p>
<p>Other undergrad programs at UNC: Library Science (#1), Public Health (#2)
Other undergrad programs at UVA: Engineering</p>
<p>NRC: non-zero programs</p>
<h1>24 UNC</h1>
<h1>28 UVA</h1>
<p>NRC: all programs</p>
<h1>22 UNC</h1>
<h1>25 UVA</h1>
<p>US News professional
UNC </p>
<h1>2 Pharmacy</h1>
<h1>5 Nursing</h1>
<h1>8 Social Work</h1>
<h1>14 Public Affairs</h1>
<h1>20 Medicine</h1>
<h1>21 Business</h1>
<h1>28 Law</h1>
<h1>30 Education</h1>
<p>UVA</p>
<h1>10 Law</h1>
<h1>13 Business</h1>
<h1>19 Nursing</h1>
<h1>21 Education</h1>
<h1>25 Medicine</h1>
<p>Summary
UNC trumps UVA in most arts & science fields, except for some of the humanities in which UVA can hold its own. The difference between UNC and UVA for A&S is so great that UNC comes ahead in the NRC all fields ranking, despite getting almost all zeros for the engineering rankings (1/5 of all fields). </p>
<p>UVA trumps UNC in engineering by default. As an interesting note, UNC beat UVA in both of the engineering fields in which it is ranked by the NRC (BME and Civil Engineering).</p>
<p>UNC has stronger professional programs except for business, law, and education.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think UT-Austin belongs somewhere in there, probably between UCLA/Wisconsin and UVA.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>If you’re talking faculty quality and overall academic breadth and depth, then you can take out UVA, UNC, and W&M from that list and add research powerhouses like Wisconsin, UCSD, Texas, Illinois, and Washington.</p>
<p>W&M is THE Public Ivy. It offers an undergrad experience at 5500 students that the others cannot. I believe smaller is better for teaching as well as peer groups. IMHO.</p>