<p>My son has been accepted to both Williams and Brown. He has never visited either school, but will visit both in April before making a final decision. His interests lie in physics, math and computer science.</p>
<p>Which school would likely be a better fit? What specific questions might he ask while visiting to make the distinction between these choices clearer?</p>
<p>Williams and Brown are two very different places, which I’d guess will make the decision easy for your son after he visits. Beyond the basic academic differences (Brown has an open curriculum, Williams has distribution requirements, etc) the two schools just have totally different feels to them. Brown was on my list as well, and I found it very clear that it wasn’t a good fit for me after my visit.</p>
<p>A plug for those subjects at Williams, though: Williams has an extraordinary undergraduate research program in the sciences. Since there are only undergraduates here, it means that all research that happens on campus happens with undergraduate students (whereas at Brown and other larger universities, post-docs and grad students get first pick of those spots). About 200 students stay on campus every summer doing paid research in the sciences (getting about $3500), and over 40% of papers published by faculty here are co-authored by students. More impressively, all this research money doesn’t even come from Williams–we get twice the number of National Science Foundation and similar grants as any of our peer institutions, and that money even goes to paying students to do their own research projects, not just helping with a faculty member’s research work.</p>
<p>And, an extra plug for Math: Williams has the largest undergraduate math program in the country and averages about 10% math majors (national average is less than 2%). The professors in the department are phenomenal; Ed Burger won the Cherry Award last year (the only national “teacher of the year” award, spanning all disciplines across all universities) and has accumulated heaps of other awards and recognitions, and three other professors in the department have been named Math Professor of the Year. Prof. Burger is hilarious and an amazingly approachable person. He actually put himself through grad school writing comedy for Jay Leno, and teaches a comedy writing course during Winter Study.</p>
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<p>Williams is about the strongest possible LAC in these areas (Harvey Mudd also comes to mind, but that’s a different kind of school). The math program is extraordinary, as noted above. The Williams physics program has earned more [url=<a href=“http://www.aps.org/programs/honors/awards/apker.cfm]Apker[/url”>LeRoy Apker Award]Apker[/url</a>] awards, given by the American Physical Society for excellence in undergraduate research, than any other dept. nationwide.</p>
<p>The environments of these two schools are polar opposites: you will be comparing one of the most hip and urban schools in New England (Brown) with one of the most remote and rural (Williams). This difference may be even more important than the academics in terms of establishing the “better fit”.</p>
<p>From a social perspective, Williams will have more of a preppy jock thing going on, while Brown will be much more urban hipster.</p>
<p>Thanks, folks – especially Williams2011! Your posts have been very insightful.</p>
<p>My son’s really not into the preppy jock or the urban hipster thing; he’s more of a math and science nerd who also has broad liberal arts interests (he actually enjoys reading the classics!). He likes quirky, which seems to be common to both Williams and Brown – the whole Williams Non-Pope story (assigning some random guy in Akron, Ohio the old Pope title) just left him in stitches. </p>
<p>Socially, I think Williams would be the superior fit – a smaller community will probably cause him to try a wider range of ECs because one of his friends or dorm mates is already involved. He also enjoys the interdisciplinary approach to some computer science classes, most notably one on game creation taught by Prof. McGuire – tech classes that also manage to integrate the liberal arts really appeal to him</p>
<p>I worry, however, about the lack of graduate level courses, especially in math and science, because he can devour new math and science subjects that interest him in pretty much a single pass without repetition or review. He polished off his high school’s entire math curriculum by the end of sophomore year and is taking the last AP science class his third and final year. What does Williams do with a junior or senior who’s ready for graduate level work? Customize independent study projects?</p>
<h2>the urban hipster thing;"</h2>
<pre><code> Ha. That’s a bit overdone. Do you know Josh Marshall/TPM? He spent his grad years at Brown and he’d be ammused at being referred to as a “UH.”
Brown is a comfortable school in ways Williams can never be. That’s not a knock it’s just more of an objective assesment.
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<p>OP, I understand the math department at Williams is very approachable. I would send an E-mail to the chair of the department and ask about accommodations that can be made in case your son devours the undergraduate curriculum in short order. But, remember at Williams, there are distribution requirements and he will be spending time taking other subjects. My D was like your son and completed all the math classes available including 2 AP’s by junior year. At Williams, she was overwhelmed in her first multi-variable calculus class. The class was great with a wonderful professor, but it was very challenging. Fortunately, Williams students are very cooperative and study groups saved the day. She had the same experience in Bio.</p>
<p>I’d like to second GTalum’s point regarding the rigor of the math department. This is nothing like high school math. It’s also a big major at Williams so there are lots of upper level electives. Check out the course catalog online for specifics.</p>
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<p>Number of undergraduate students graduating with math majors last year</p>
<p>25 – Williams
60 – Brown
107 - MIT
200 - UC Berkeley</p>
<p>^ Williams has a significantly higher percentage of undergraduate math majors (Brown has far more total students). In response to the OP: Williams is the superior undergraduate school, much more prestigious in the eyes of the academic/intellectual elite, higher proportion of students feeding into the top professional schools, etc. Also, the per student endowment at Williams is much higher than Brown’s. Brown’s claim to fame is that it is among the 8 ivy league schools, but it is in a different academic league than HYP and their top LAC peers.</p>
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<p>That’s sort of not true, though one can be forgiven for mixing up two LACs both of which begin with “W”: <a href=“http://www.wesleyan.edu/sciences/sciencefacts.html[/url]”>http://www.wesleyan.edu/sciences/sciencefacts.html</a></p>
<p>It’s actually higher than that.</p>
<p>Average Math Majors for the past four years are: 55
out of 500 students. </p>
<p>That’s a bit above 10% of the entire college major in math.</p>
<p>“williams is the more superior undergraduate school”? I could find a lot of people to disagree with that</p>
<p>at least at brown you don’t have people saying “Williams? you mean williams & mary?” :-)</p>
<p>My brother is a junior at Brown and I am a freshman at Williams. From our discussions, I think Williams professors are hands-down more approachable than Brown professors. Both my brother and I took multivariable calculus last semester…My professor had office hours twice a week, dined with us at monthly math dinners in the dinning hall on the first Monday of every month, invited us to weekly math colloquium, and even invited my Junior Advisor (like Resident Advisor but not paid by the college) to dinner at his home. My Calculus class had 30 students and my brother’s at Brown had upwards of 100. </p>
<p>Also, because Williams does not have graduate students, the undergraduates serve as Teaching Assistants (TAs) for the introduction level math classes. The TAs do not teach classes, but rather they hold review sessions to go over questions on the problem set twice a week. If your son excels in his introductory level math class, he will likely be asked to be a TA or tutor at the Math and Science Resource Center in his sophomore, junior, or senior year.</p>
<p>LoremIpsum wrote:</p>
<p>“I worry, however, about the lack of graduate level courses, especially in math and science, because he can devour new math and science subjects that interest him in pretty much a single pass without repetition or review. He polished off his high school’s entire math curriculum by the end of sophomore year and is taking the last AP science class his third and final year. What does Williams do with a junior or senior who’s ready for graduate level work? Customize independent study projects?”</p>
<p>Greetings, mathematics major at Williams here. Currently a junior. You raise a valid question, though I will note that lack of graduate students does not translate to lack of graduate level courses. The 300-400 level courses tend to cover material seen in the first year of graduate school and follow texts specifically written for “advanced undergraduates or first-year graduate students” (most of them use those words precisely). Here’s the online catalogue of math courses being taught this current semester: [Williams</a> College Catalog](<a href=“MATH Wil Spring 2010-11 – Catalog Archive”>Mathematics Spring 2010-11 – Catalog Archive). So the material covered certainly extends beyond what one would expect from standard, undergraduate courses.</p>
<p>That said, there is certainly a difference between a 300 or 400 level course at Williams and a graduate course at Brown or any other research university, and this has largely to do with the difference between graduate and undergraduate programs. Graduate programs are professional schools, and as a graduate student of mathematics your life essentially revolves around churning out proofs. The courses in a graduate program, from what I can tell, tend to be more accelerated than even the higher level courses at Williams, largely because Williams’ math program is not primarily pre-professional (though it should be noted that we do a pretty good job of sending students to math PhD programs and other careers), as you would expect from a small liberal arts college. What difference does this make? Well, it depends in part on which professor is teaching your course. Some professors will teach in a more accelerated style, and some will teach less so. In both cases, a student will be introduced to graduate level material, but perhaps will cover 60% of a typical first year graduate course in the one as opposed to 40% in the other (I’m generating those numbers based on my personal experience, and they are not scientific figures).</p>
<p>On the other other hand, the work at the 300-400 level will definitely keep you busy, and in my opinion there is no need to turn your college experience into a graduate-level frenzy. And if your son ends up completing work at this level in a timely manner - I have classmates who were doing quite well for themselves at the 400 level in their sophomore year - then he will most likely be primed to pursue a thesis project his senior year and perhaps independent studies his junior year, and those can be at whichever advanced level he can manage to push. Independent studies (semester long courses pursued one one one or two on one with a professor) are not rare or difficult to orchestrate at Williams, which is one advantage of attending an institution where faculty are so present.</p>
<p>I can’t speak to physics or comp sci, but I pass by the physics lounge often around 1 or 2 in the morning and more often than not spy students working out problems on the board at that hour, so I can only assume there is no want for work in that department, either.</p>
<p>I’d also like to direct your attention to SMALL, a summer undergraduate research program hosted by Williams, and the largest such program in the country: [url=<a href=“http://math.williams.edu/small/]Math/Stat[/url”>SMALL – Mathematics & Statistics]Math/Stat[/url</a>].</p>
<p>There’s no doubt that the resources available to math students at Williams are among the best available to any undergraduate anywhere, but I think what really makes Williams stand out is the availability of the faculty and their willingness to be involved in their students’ studies. Sure, you can take a course marked at the graduate level at a research university, but it will be more difficult to access the professor responsible for the course during his or her off hours than it is at Williams. All professors hold official open office hours at least once a week (usually twice), but most are in their offices with their doors open even outside those official hours, and they are always happy to have students come and discuss math. (And make no mistake, they are no strangers to publishing.) I know multiple students who have engineered independent studies, and many students who write theses with a faculty adviser end up publishing their original research. So that’s the flip-side to Williams’ not being primarily a pre-professional program - world-class faculty come to teach at Williams because they have a particular interest in engaging undergraduate students, rather than hiding away and busying themselves day and night with their own research. And this really holds true for all disciplines at Williams. It’s a unique experience, indeed.</p>
<p>emma watson (actress of Hermione in Harry Potter) chose Brown, and she had her pick of any school in the U.S., so it can’t be that bad!</p>
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<p>Thanks, Polka. That’s great if my son was pursuing his Mr. degree (the modern equivalent of the old Mrs. degree), or if he was planning on minoring in stalking celebs. Can you offer any specifics of why one might choose Brown over Williams?</p>
<p>The Williams students are making a compelling case for their college – offering some surprisingly detailed insights. It’s curious that, on an anonymous board, no one frustrated with the school has stepped forward to complain. Should I therefore assume that the happiness/satisfaction rate among Williams students is very high?</p>
<p>Clearly the math department is held in high esteem. What about the computer science and physics departments? Unlike math, both these departments need cutting-edge equipment to be at the forefront of current research. Is this the case?</p>
<p>^^^^^Lerem, gee, I wonder why there are more comments from Williams supporters than Brown supporters on this thread located on the Williams section of CC?</p>
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<p>Ivydoc, even though Williams is one of my favorite schools, I am not completely sure about this</p>
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<p>Of course, and I’ll probably open a separate thread in the Brown section in a few days to gauge their side of the issue. I am nevertheless surprised that the positive responses have been thoughtfully detailed multi-paragraph essays, while no complaints of substance have yet been posted.</p>