Williams or Brown?

<p>This is getting to be a funny thread. </p>

<p>I love Williamstown. But picture doing this. Walk out the door of The Rock and catch a cab. Drive 15 min’s south to the second deck of Green Airport (4.45). Board flight and take off for Kennedy at 5:30. Arrive at 5:50. Home in Queens at 6:45. A piece of cake. Brown is the school of soft knocks.</p>

<p>^ looks like mandala was wrong</p>

<p>:-)</p>

<p>miinerva is right… providence > williamstown.</p>

<p>williams was the most depressing/stuffy/suffocating campus i visited. </p>

<p>again just my opinion, im sure you know 102940124 kids from new york city who “love the mountains” or whatever</p>

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<p>This is an inaccurate interpretation of College Navigator statistics. Go back to the College Navigator page for Williams, and open the list of “Programs/Majors”. You will see a little footnote at the end that says “Data shown are for first majors”.</p>

<p>But at Williams, a high percentage of students (about 39%) graduate with double majors. This means that the number of majors at Williams is significantly higher than the number of students. The number of graduating students per year may be around 525 – which is the total given by College Navigator – but those graduating students will collectively earn some 700-750 majors, because double majoring is so common. </p>

<p>College Navigator completely ignores those hundreds of additional majors. So their stats significantly undercount the total for each major. And some disciplines, including math, happen to be particularly popular as double majors, and are therefore particularly subject to undercount.</p>

<p>Here’s the reality: over the past 5 years (2006-2010), Williams has [url=<a href=“http://communications.williams.edu/fast-facts/]averaged[/url”>http://communications.williams.edu/fast-facts/]averaged[/url</a>] about 50 math majors per graduating class, and each graduating class runs a bit more than 500 students. So do the math. As a rough approximation, yes, about 10% of the graduating students in each Williams class do have a major in math (commonly in addition to another major). If we included the computer science majors (average of 14 per class), we would easily exceed the 10% threshold (even if we acknowledge that some computer science majors probably have a double major in math, and are therefore being counted twice). </p>

<p>I hope this clarifies things a bit for you.</p>

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<p>Look closer. </p>

<p>:-(</p>

<p>Williams Primary Math majors graduating last year as a percent of students in class</p>

<p>25/525 = 4.8%</p>

<p>College Navigator - Williams College</p>

<p>I hope this clarifies things a bit for you</p>

<p>Sigh. Don’t know why some participants in this thread are going out of their way to mislead the OP, but (s)he deserves some closure re: the next-to-pointless debate that has ensued. So here it is.</p>

<p>First, Williams does not have primary and secondary majors. I don’t know where College Navigator or College ******* or whichever came up with the idea that we do. But we don’t. I am double majoring, and when I declared there was no significance to the order in which I listed my majors. The requirements for the completion of the major do not change depending on which order you list them in. The capacity to pursue honors in either major (or both, if you’re insane) does not change. Same goes for those triple majoring (it happens). Again, misleading statistic (arguably less misleading than simply made up).</p>

<p>Second of all, if you want to know how many current math majors there at Williams, you need only visit the official Williams College mathematics department web site and see for yourself: [url=&lt;a href=“http://math.williams.edu/majors/current-majors/]Math/Stat[/url”&gt;http://math.williams.edu/majors/current-majors/]Math/Stat[/url</a>]. Their names are listed on that page. I recognize those names - I’ve been in class with a fair amount of them. It’s the most accurate data you will get, far more accurate than these third-party sites our interlocutors keep toting (what are their methodologies? They claim we graduated somebody majoring in environmental studies in 2010, which is strange because the two environmental studies majors were first instituted for the 2010-11 year (prior to this year environmental studies was a concentration (and it still is)). So clearly something is wrong.) If you care to count, 61 class of '11 students are majoring in mathematics. 59 class of '12 students are majoring in mathematics. This was mentioned earlier in the thread, but our interlocutors overlooked that fact or ignored it. But there it is.</p>

<p>Anyway. That should be the end of that. I don’t know why somebody who claims that the number of math majors is irrelevant should go so far out of his or her way to continually cite misleading data in the face of accurate data evidencing the contrary. That’s all that I have left to say on the matter. The OP will hopefully feel welcome to ask any further questions (s)he has - we’ll be happy to answer them as honestly and transparently as possible.</p>

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<p>This is an inaccurate interpretation of College Navigator data (again). There are no “primary” (or “secondary”) majors at Williams. You either major in something, or you don’t. If you double-major, both majors are equal. </p>

<p>There is an interesting pattern in the College Navigator data. Their numbers seem to be correlate rather well with the [Williams</a> numbers](<a href=“http://communications.williams.edu/fast-facts/]Williams”>http://communications.williams.edu/fast-facts/) for majors that are located near the beginning of the alphabet (like art, biology, or chemistry). However, College Navigator seems to undercount majors located further down in the alphabet (like mathematics, political science, or psychology).</p>

<p>So my guess is that Williams simply reports double-majors in alphabetical order. In that case, math wouldn’t be the “first major” for anyone double-majoring in biology/math, chemistry/math, computer science/math, or economics/math – which are probably the most popular math double-major combinations. In all of these cases, math would be the “second major” – not because it is “secondary”, but simply because it comes second alphabetically.</p>

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<p>■■■■■■■■ on the Williams forum seems a popular past time. I’m not sure why.</p>

<p>omg who cares how many math majors there are!! stop arguing about it! you guys sound like total nerds right now</p>

<p>^^^■■■■■■■■ is the sincerest form of flattery…</p>

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<p>I hope they aren’t disappointed. OP couldn’t care less if it’s 5% or 10% or 15%, so long that there is a good range of math classes. You don’t have to be a math major to take even a higher level-class, you could major in physics or CS and have an interest in math without a compelling need to actually double-major.</p>

<p>I only mentioned Brown as the alternative to Williams to not muddy up the initial discussion, but my son also has standing acceptances to Amherst and Northwestern (admitted to ISP). How does Williams compare against these alternate choices?</p>

<p>Amherst and Williams are similar in many respects (in fact, Amherst was established in 1821 by a group of faculty and students who left Williams), but one difference is that Williams tends to have a greater focus on science and math. For example, Williams appears to have 16 tenure-track math faculty (including profs on leave, but not counting visiting profs, lecturers, or emeriti), while Amherst only appears to have 8. There’s a similar gap in computer science faculty (8 vs. 4). Granted, Williams is slightly larger than Amherst, but it’s not twice as large.</p>

<p>It’s been suggested that this difference could be related to the total absence of distribution requirements at Amherst. In theory, you could graduate from Amherst without ever taking a single math or science course (at Williams, you would have to take at least three). So Amherst may be more attractive to prospective students who dislike math and science. This is known informally as the “Parker Effect”, after an Amherst Dean of Admissions, who once [url=&lt;a href=“http://amherststudent.amherst.edu/current/news/view.php?year=2005-2006&issue=13&section=news&article=03]commented[/url”&gt;http://amherststudent.amherst.edu/current/news/view.php?year=2005-2006&issue=13&section=news&article=03]commented[/url</a>] that the open curriculum destined Amherst to have a certain number of “math/science-phobes.” The Parker Effect is probably real to some extent, but it’s not clear whether it accounts for all of the differences between the two schools.</p>

<p>The smaller size of the Amherst Math Dept. doesn’t necessarily make it a bad choice, but it does seem likely that there would be a greater variety of courses and research opportunities at Williams.</p>

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<p>good stuff</p>

<p>thanks</p>

<p>To the OP: S was accepted at Brown and Williams and chose Williams, just gut instinct. Is not a math major, so I can’t speak to that.</p>

<p>He is a Classics Major and is very happy with the program.</p>

<p>Your S will have to decide which environment would be more supportive to him. One of Ss best buds went to Brown. He ultimately loved Brown but found it harder to find a social fit in the beginning of his four years there. My S loved his frosh entry which gave an immediate and active social life.</p>

<p>And yes, he loved Winter Study, too.</p>

<p>I think there is less grade deflation at Brown, which has its own appeal. There were times I <em>did</em> wish my kid was there because of that, but thank goodness my S loves learning and has never been concerned.</p>

<p>Both are great schools. He’ll figure it out. Good luck.</p>

<p>I don’t see why my bolded 59 and 61 numbers of math majors in 2011/12 went so completely ignored for so long by all these people who seem to think College Navigator a better indication of college major numbers than the colleges themselves, but thanks to Mandala for clearing this up further.</p>

<p>And, as a note of comparison–math (and stat) concentration numbers (straight off the Brown website) over the last five years are only: 30, 29, 32, 33, 26. Including Applied Mathematics (and even CS as a factor in this), you’re still only at 40 or so per year. And this is for a school with 1800 in a class–over three times the size of a class at Williams. Brown seems to be right in-line with the national math major average of about 1-2%, whereas 11% of the two classes at Williams who have declared majors are majoring in Math. (source: <a href=“Office of Institutional Research | Brown University”>Office of Institutional Research | Brown University) Factor in the exceptional faculty in the Math department, the SMALL summer research program–all enhanced by the small class sizes and general benefits of a liberal arts education that Williams offers–and I think Williams wins by a long shot when it comes to Math.</p>

<p>Sorry, I realize the nit-picking over numbers is clearly not what anyone here is going to be basing a decision around, I just wanted to adequately respond to all the trollin’ going on in here.</p>

<p>Also, on the note about Williams’ location (and winters): I have absolutely loved the Williams experience socially, and given our Winter Study term in January, winter is possibly my favorite time of the year to be a Williams student.</p>

<p>That being said, obviously some people are going to be much happier at a city school, and Brown certainly offers that option infinitely better than Williams (though I’ll echo earlier sentiments of being a bit put-off by Providence in particular when I visited–though it was at least better than New Haven). That’s why I emphasized earlier that visiting is so crucially important, and the feel of these two schools is really what’s going to be very different. In my experience, one of the things I really loved about Williams was its rural setting–for me, it felt like more of a college community. I also felt like the college experience in city schools more generally meant that a lot of social life happened off-campus, in the cities, and therefore carried a pretty high price tag. At Williams, almost everything here is free, and even as a senior frequenting the bar a fair bit I’m spending only about $10/15 per week (spent about $5 each week freshman/sophomore year). For someone on financial aid, this was a huge factor for me.</p>

<p>I think one of the best things about Williams is that the people who come here are here because they love what Williams is all about, and excited rather than put-off by its community. I also think the fact that Williams may not be a name-dropping conversation point to your average guy on the street plays a huge role in the collaborative, relaxed and (generally) humble atmosphere here. People end up here because they care more about the real advantages to Williams than its street-cred. And, most importantly, to the people who matter–namely, graduate schools, where 75% of Williams students end up within 5 years, and most professions–the Williams name carries a huge amount of weight.</p>

<p>On a personal narrative note, I’ve sat next to two people on flights–international ones, at that–who had not only heard of Williams, but were very impressed to hear I was a student there. I have a friend who was at Oxford in the class of '10 who also remarked on how widely known Williams was throughout the Oxford community (presumably because of our program their, but still).</p>

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<p>Williams2011, so are you saying that Williams’ Math faculty is more exceptional than Brown’s Math faculty?</p>

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<p>Depends on what you are looking for.</p>

<p>If you are looking for exceptional undergraduate-level math instruction, then the Williams math dept. stands out. For example, take a look at the Mathematical Association of America’s [Haimo</a> Awards](<a href=“http://www.maa.org/Awards/Haimo_Recipients.html]Haimo”>http://www.maa.org/Awards/Haimo_Recipients.html) for “extraordinarily successful” math teachers:</p>

<p>Williams: 4 Haimo Awards
Brown: 1 Haimo Award
Rest of Ivy League combined: 2 Haimo Awards</p>

<p>Now, this is not to suggest that Ivy League math professors aren’t exceptional – they most certainly are. But they may have different priorities than LAC math professors, such as focusing on advanced research rather than on undergraduate level instruction.</p>

<p>Williams College!</p>

<p>williams’ people are definitely going to be proud of their school</p>

<p>i’d definitely choose brown, but thats me! i know kids that transferred from williams to brown, i don’t hear about people transferring out of the ivy league though</p>

<p>now the other thread, williams v davidson, THATS an easy decision… williams for sure.
top LAC = win</p>