<p>Personally, I just think that undergrad is too early to go into business. However, if you are 100% sure that you want to go into business, then I guess it’s a good choice.</p>
<p>and even if you don’t, a Wharton degree will allow you to do just about anything.</p>
<p>Necrophiliac:</p>
<p>You raise an interesting overall point, but there are some problems with parts of your analysis. First, are we comparing the options of someone at Wharton UG and someone ACCEPTED to Wharton UG who then chose to go elsewhere? If so, the options of someone capable of getting into Wharton UG are VERY good. </p>
<p>The majority of people accepted to Wharton go, I’ve known maybe only a couple who turned down Wharton for something else, and that something else was usually quite impressive. If not HYPS, a wharton acceptee probably could get a full-ride at a UVa or Michigan, or a huge merit scholarship at a very good undergrad, like a Wash U (which tends to throw money around) or Emory. The Wharton acceptee would be one of the best students at any of these schools. </p>
<p>After college, it’s undisputed that the Wharton UG would have the best options. A Phi Beta Kappa graduate from UVa or Michigan (something the Wharton acceptee attending one of those schools could get), however, would have good options too. Again, not nearly as great as the Wharton grad, but a PBK grad in economics from Michigan or Ross or UVa could probably land a decent finance gig right after undergrad. </p>
<p>So, if you take a wharton grad and the path of someone capable of getting into Wharton, it could more likely look like this:</p>
<p>Wharton Grad’s costs: $215K for undergrad. With a standard student loan program with a standard rate of interest, this means paying about $2500 a month for 10 years following graduation. This isn’t chump change. </p>
<p>Michgan/UVa grad’s costs: Basically $0 for undergrad, and then, up until recently, the financial firm PAYS for the MBA. The Mich/UVa TOP grad could get at least something vaguely similar to what a run of the mill Wharton UG grad could get, and then the employer would pay for the MBA, so it’s $0 for undergrad, very little for an MBA. </p>
<p>There are 2 years of lost opportunity when attaining the MBA, but the Wharton grad also has $215K of school debt to pay back. The TOP Mich grad who then gets an MBA would have very little debt to pay back. </p>
<p>What does this all mean? Overall, it roughly works out to being about equivalent. Of course, it’s contingent on the Mich grad doing VERY well in college, and the Wharton grad can be just average and be fine. </p>
<p>What you also have to realize tho, is the vast majority of Wharton undergrads go back to grad school for something. According to the surveys, for some classes, as many as 66% of Wharton ugs wind up going to grad school, and for recent classes with a tighter economy, this might be even higher. So, the Wharton UG grad is also facing opportunity costs in the future by 2 years at an MBA program or 3 for a law degree or whatever. </p>
<p>Fact of the matter is, while it can vary by class year, oftentimes the majority of Wharton ugs end up going back to school for a grad degree. </p>
<p>Either way, provided the Wharton acceptee stays true to his/her ability and excels at a Mich/UVa, I don’t think a Wharton UG degree provides that much of an advantage against the kid who does great at Mich and then goes on to getting a Wharton MBA. In fact, with the significant debt burden brought on by 4 years at Wharton, the Mich ug/Wharton MBA may actually be in a better position.</p>
<p>Ok so the second half of your post is completely irrelevant because companies don’t do that anymore…</p>
<p>Anyway, if the UVA kid can isolate himself from his lower-caliber peers, keep high grades throughout his/ her undergrad and land a Wharton-level finance gig, s/he isn’t doing too bad. Then comes the fun with GMATs, applications, lost salary, going to school with kids 10 years younger than you (I’m planning to take MBA sections of finance courses), etc.</p>
<p>My cost: 215k
Your option: 160k(1+rate of tuition hikes)^(number of years out) + 2 years worth of salary + uncertainty of admission</p>
<p>Necrophiliac - if we talk about the state of the economy today and what companies are doing today, as I’m sure you know better than I, it’s a rough, rough world out there. All the top MBA schools, Wharton, Harvard, etc. have flagging employment statistics. It’s just bad. </p>
<p>Either way, I think you’re underestimating how strong a Wharton-worthy applicant is, and how he/she can flourish at a range of schools. Also, taking the GMATs and dealing with the grad school process and uncertainty of admission isn’t that much of a cost, in comparison to 215K of debt. I’m assuming, 7-8 years out, probably 65-70% of your classmates will go through the grad app process. Furthermore, going to classes with kids 10 years younger than you? At most b-schools, this isn’t the case at all. Does Wharton readily mix undergrad and grad classes? If it does, it may be the exception to the rule, and Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Chicago etc. don’t do this. </p>
<p>Of course, right now, anything in business is incredibly uncertain. I have friends at Wharton’s MBA program who face a great deal of uncertainty. I’d think the W ugs are in a similar boat. It’s tough to project what the better option is in the future, because we simply don’t know how the market will be. In the past (say for someone entering college in 2002 or so), I don’t think Wharton ug is a much better option than mich ug/wharton mba. </p>
<p>I guess it ultimately depends if, at 18, you’re really sure you want such a business-focused undergrad curriculum. There is no great monetary benefit (in the past) for someone to do mich full ride/wharton mba rather than wharter undergrad. In the future, who knows? Maybe UG b-schools will lose some of their luster, maybe MBA programs will change radically. In recent history, there’s no great financial benefit for a supremely talented applicant to go to wharton UG rather than a full ride at Mich etc. Of course, the Wharton option would mean more certainty, but also most certainly more debt. The Mich option would demand great performance, but no debt. </p>
<p>Of course, we haven’t looked at the option of, just as the wharton ug grad does NOT go to grad school, the Michigan Phi Beta Kappa graduate could decide to not go to grad school too, and also then live life without 215K in debt. </p>
<p>My core argument revolves around the following two assumptions: That a Wharton acceptee is capable of absolutely excelling at a very good UG program. Second, the absolute top graduates from UMichigan and UVa (say, those in the top 4-5% of the class in econ or finance) have similar options to say, the bottom 30-40% of the class at Wharton. I think these are two fairly safe asumptions to make. </p>
<p>Finally, for the future, who knows? I’m assuming the mood around Wharton has been much more sober these past couple of years. Right now, perhaps some of your Wharton classmates would prefer a UVa degree with absolutely no debt, rather than 215k debt and uncertain job opportunities with a W ug degree.</p>
<p>Cue7, I’ve heard of a Harvard professor looked down upon because he attended a non-Ivy for his undergraduate education (all other was Ivy-level). The logo is for life. When I tell people I attend Wharton, there is an immediate change in our interaction dynamic. That is something the UVA kid will never command. </p>
<p>However, those intangibles may not be worth the 215k; this is true. Then, Wharton is worth it for those who get substantial financial aid and those who are in special programs.</p>
<p>In either case, I feel that I was justified in attending. Sure, I’m taking out a mortgage to pay for this education but this is perhaps the best house I’ll buy in my life.</p>
<p>For anyone trying to make this decision: also consider the little voice in the back of your mind that will, at every adversity in your life, whisper in your ear that things could have been different if you had the Wharton logo on your transcript. I’d prefer to take out the 215k and have the security of the brand name than force myself into grad school and take a gamble on the meritocracy concept.</p>
<p>Necro - you certainly raise valid points. Wharton is a known, valued, and respected commodity, and certainly if you figure in financial aid packages and the like, it makes tremendous sense to get a Wharton degree. It’s why so many who are accepted go on and attend W. </p>
<p>It’s all a cost benefit analysis. For some people, the recognition associated with a certain school counts for a lot, and for others, getting a full ride and not having debt counts for even more. Some, honestly, would take a MILLION in debt to have Wharton on their resume. </p>
<p>In either case, if you get into Wharton, you’re going to have other outstanding college options, and will probably, for the rest of your life, be in a peer group with your W compatriots. At the end of the day, as cliched as it sounds, after a certain degree of signalling effect, it’s the work you do and your abilities that count. Remember, we’re talking about similarly situated individuals. We’re not talking about the run of the mill UVa kid and a Wharton grad, we’re talking about the UVa kid who’s at the top of his class - and both of these kids will do fine. I don’t know if the kid who graduated top 4% of his class from UVa or Michigan thinks his flagship school is “holding him back.” Of course, graduated in the top 10% from Wharton would be even better, but obviously not all the Wharton admits are going to be able to get that brass ring four years from now. </p>
<p>Also, I don’t know quite what you mean about a Harvard professor being “looked down upon” for going to a non-ivy level undergrad. What does this mean? Chances are that Harvard prof went to an elite grad school and isn’t just at Harvard by fluke, so I don’t know what you mean here. Once you’re a tenured professor at Harvard, quite frankly, you’ve made it, disregarding where you went to undergrad. </p>
<p>Also, regarding that “little voice saying everything would be different if you went to Wharton,” I mean again, for kids capable of getting into Wharton, they have other great options for college. We’re talking about a kid who’s looking at a full ride at a flagship state school, probably some scholarship money from a place like Duke, or acceptance and hefty financial aid packages from possibly HYPS, probably Dartmouth or Chicago or whatever. The PBK grad from Michigan or the kid who chose a liberal arts education at Dartmouth who enjoyed four years of grade inflation instead of Wharton’s more rigorous curve probably doesn’t think much about what Wharton could have done for him/her. </p>
<p>To reiterate, I think you have to realize more what a Wharton-capable applicant can do. Also, re: “forcing yourself into grad school,” probably the vast majority of your peers at Wharton will be doing just that 4-7 years from now. I think the trend toward getting a graduate degree will continue, disregarding whether you attend an elite b-school undergrad or not. </p>
<p>Finally, I don’t mean to question your own choice to attend Wharton. If you’re good enough to get in there, you know how to make the best choice for you. For some people, though, I think looking away from Wharton may actually work well.</p>
<p>I’m sorry my Harvard professor comment was not clear at all. What I meant to say is I heard of a Harvard professor who left Harvard because the other professors looked down on him for not having received his undergraduate degree from an Ivy league school.</p>
<p>I really can’t say anything new in regards to your other points. You think undergraduate degree name doesn’t matter? That’s fine. I honestly don’t think I would have had lunch with a UBS recruiter as a freshman in any other college. I also don’t know how many other schools Mack and Thain speak at. I also don’t hear of my friends in Cornell and GTown going to NY to have alumni dinners in Time Square Steak Houses (Wharton picks up the check ofc).</p>
<p>Necrophiliac - kids at Harvard and Yale undergrad aren’t getting comped alumni dinners at “times square steak houses” either. </p>
<p>Sure, undergrad name matters, and I never said it didn’t. Wharton, however, is a very, very particular undergrad school preparing its graduated for a very particular career - one with very few peers in american education. </p>
<p>Moreover, as a country, we are moving more and more toward coveting graduate degrees rather than undergrad degrees. Sure, undergrad degrees are great (altho the story about the Harvard professor is weird, if I was a tenured professor at Harvard, it’d take a lot more than people putting down my undergrad to get me to leave), but we value grad degrees more and more.</p>
<p>It sounds like Wharton was a great fit for you, and you knew full well that you wanted to do business coming into the program. That’s great. If you are dead-set on business and don’t mind the debt, Wharton is a great place to go. Of course the kids going on a full ride to Cornell undergrad or Gtown won’t be getting that. As I said above, there are costs and benefits to both routes - students just have to be clear on what those costs and benefits are. </p>
<p>Right now, I think with the economy in its current state and the american market going through something of a correction, a sole undergrad degree in business may not have the cache it had in the 50s or 60s. Given the market now, you very well could be looking at grad school (maybe even an MBA program) in the future.</p>
<p>If you look at Wharton classes in the past, sometimes 40% or more go on to get their MBAs. If you love business, wharton ug/W mba is a great way to go. I don’t know if that graduate, though, would have tremendously more opportunities than the umich ug/wharton mba. </p>
<p>To conclude, yes undergrad degree matters, but relax. On a certain level, performance will matter more, and the kid who gets the coveted grad degree may, further down the line, be better off. </p>
<p>At the end of the line in today’s educational marketplace, strength of graduate degree is still the ultimate credential - even from those coming from very pre-professional undergrads, the majority go on to get grad degrees.</p>
<p>well then we agree on that people should really know what they are doing before doing it (duh).</p>
<p>think this dead horse is sufficiently beaten.</p>
<p>Yah I just think that ESPECIALLY now, people don’t really know what they’re doing when it comes to making educated decisions. Otherwise, there would be a LOT fewer people going to law school and business school right now.</p>