<p>If you take the 2500+ univ. in the US and "rank" them by SAT scores I am sure that somewhere along the line the classes become less intense and less demanding. At what point this happens is the question. My Ivy/top ten accepted student has not found this to be the case at our State U where even a few NMF kids have had problems keeping up. I guess it's ranked about 47 or so. Drizzit has a great control group in the twins :) Do 150/200 extra SAT points really matter that much when a good work ethic is in place? Our uni. doesn't superscore so maybe its not even that much. I'm not sold on the whole better SAT/better student thing. There are too many other variables that can make a difference.</p>
<p>Calmom, two of the courses my D took were the highest intro calculus courses for scientists. She also took 2 German language courses. </p>
<p>Sorry, I stand by my observation that a State U ranked about 100 does not come close to a very selective U. I also had similar observations as a student, TA, or faculty member at mid level State U's in Ohio, NY, Kansas, Colorado, and Arkansas. Your experience in California might be a lot different. Many of the CA U's are much better than elsewhere in the nation.</p>
<p>Sax has put the clearest question. Few people would say that for example Princeton is markedly better overall than Dartmouth. Few people would say that Harvard is not markedly better overall than San Diego State. By markedly better overall I mean, students enough more capable of interesting discussions and professors enough more capable of leading interesting and challenging discussions as to be noticeable. So how wide does the gap in selectivity have to be before the accomplished interested student notices? </p>
<p>I posit, as previously, if said student has a specific interest, the line is far lower down if the college in question has good specific programs in that interest. And if said student has the temperament for large state schools, again, that line is far lower down.</p>
<p>Surveys have shown a lot of individual variation but the average college student claims to study about 10 hours/week. Accurate studies have been difficult to perform but the 10 hours is a gross over estimation and the actual is probably about 3 hours/week. This is about the same study time expended at the HS level. This includes the all but worthless pre-exam cram time. On average, college students come to class totally unprepared. That can make it pretty difficult to lead interesting and challenging discussions. Is there some line where that changes? Of course not. There are community college students who are determined and work hard and I am sure there are kids at Harvard who hardly do any work. Based on my experience it seems that the overall level of engagement is very low at the vast majority of our 3000 colleges. There seems to be a sharp gradient. In the top 50 or so, you can count on a high percentage of engaged students and a high quality of education. The 50-100 range you get more of a mix. My experiences in the 100-200 range have been discouraging.</p>
<p>edad:</p>
<p>I'm inclined to agree with you. I was not trying to compare students at the most selective schools with students in the 100-200 range. But in the 25-100 there are plenty of schools that are less expensive than the ones at the top which give only need-based aid. I am thinking of the title of the thread "you get what you paid for" and I am still inclined to believe it is not necessarily true--especially if your state U is terrific, as are UCLA, CAL, Michigan, UVA, etc, UW-Madison, UIUC, etc...
Large state Us are a bit like large stores; there is less editing of the merchandise. But you can get what you want if you look a bit more; and of course, the quality varies a great deal more than in a smaller boutique. But sometimes, you can get duds at some chi-chi store and the merchandise may not fit you anyway, even though it may be very well made.</p>
<p>In addition to the better State schools, there is also a lot of interest in trying to find the hidden gems - schools where an admission offer is likely for a strong student and where there is a special excitement and a culture which fosters engagement and challenge. It is too bad there are not more of both types. Unfortunately, I suspect the supply matches the demand. A lot of kids just seem to go to college because it is more or less expected, not because they have a strong interest in academics.</p>
<p>I'll put my neck on the line here. You can call it snobbery if you want, but after working his butt off taking all honors classes and 13 AP's (including the really tough ones), my S out and out refused to attend any college which classmates who never took so much as an honors class and breezed through those 4 years could get into (and that included our flagship).</p>
<p>To add: a hardworking kid has to motivate himself somehow. Intellectual passion may not be enough to sustain a student for 4 years. One reward for all those hours doing homework when the other kids were out partying is the prize of gaining admission to an elite school. So if you get in, you want to go.</p>
<p>gfg - yeah every kid is different. But there are many factors that come into play here. My son also worked his butt off in hs and got into a very selective honors program at his state u, along with lots of scholarship $. Chose it over some really good privates. He loves it. His classes this semester are ALL small and are quite challenging. He has quite a few friends outside of the honors program - some motivated students who are doing great - others who aren't the best students in the world but have other things to offer (one of his friends is a top golfer in the golf mgt program - and yes he's learned quite a bit from this guy - not about Plato of course).<br>
So yeah, go ahead and feel good that your s is surrounded by kids who worked hard to get where they are. As long as you don't trash what other kids choose to do. Or look down on them. Can't tell from your email if that's was your intent...kind of sounded that way though.</p>
<p>I guess I would be OK if my son "out and out" refused to go to his state u - but perhaps I would "out and out" refuse to pay the extra cost unless he showed me the added value. I don't think I would tolerate him making a decision on this without even examining the pros and cons. I guess that many parents disagree with my view on this though...since many of the kids in our community refuse to even visit the state school (a good one too). Only those schools who accept less than 25% of students who apply will do! And privates like BU and Syracuse are the safeties for these folks. Whatever...</p>
<p>Not trying to put anyone down. What I was saying is that for some kids getting in to a top school is payback for all the sacrifices they have made as far as free time and fun, which other equally bright students did not make. If that dream school was a reward that the student used to motivate himself, then it's pretty hard to give it up once he gets it even though another very fine and possibly cheaper option is available.</p>
<p>And actually, his private school will probably not end up costing us more anyway.</p>
<p>PS: we have several friends who are professors at the state school. Guess what? They're not sending their own kids there. Cornell, Columbia, etc.</p>
<p>It also depends on what the "honors program" is. If it's really a breakout, where the kid takes honors versions of the other classes, that's one thing. If it's "honors" in that the kid takes the same classes as everyone else, but has certain additional requirements or gets other perks, that's something else. My d took "standard" math in high school instead of honors; she didn't like math enough to put in the kind of work that honors required. She was bored out of her mind in standard. She got the concepts quicker than the other students did (though not as fast as the honors students).</p>
<p>She was accepted to an "honors" program that had only perks and additional requirements. She was afraid that in her regular classes, she wouldn't be challenged, just as she wasn't challenged in standard math in HS.</p>
<p>If a kid has been in all honors and AP classes throughout high school, and is going to a school that doesn't have those different designations, I'd be more concerned that the student body in general was of a higher academic level than I would be if the honors programs truly had honors sections of regular classes.</p>
<p>gfg - agree for the most part. If my s got into one of the Ivies (he did not) - we would have a harder decision to make. As it ended up his choice was a couple of top 30 privates at high cost vs a respected honors program at a good state school at 1/4 the cost. I'm glad that he opened himself up to this option - and didn't refuse to apply (like some around this neighborhood do). The money he saved is his - for his future - and for educational opportunities like study abroad in the summer. I think his hard work paid off in many ways...</p>
<p>Ran into an acquaintance just this week. Her D was a classmate of S's. She opted for a state school because she needed the specialized program it offered that most liberal arts colleges do not. However, mother told me that so far she is breezing through all her math classes as an actuarial science major because our hs curriculum is extremely challenging and she had already taken advanced college math in hs. </p>
<p>I think this makes a difference too. High schools are different and AP classes vary in rigor from high school to high school. I think a student in the top 10 at our extremely competitive hs would find himself underchallenged at most state schools.</p>
<p>In most state schools a student can test out of intro math classes and straight into the advanced ones. Saves time and money.</p>
<p>The honors classes at UF are composed of kids with 1400-1600 SATs. You can take science, math, english, languages, history- just about any gened requirement- in an honors section. Something tells me that there is probably no difference in the level of student aptitude in those classrooms than in most colleges in the top 25. We get free tuition and a book stipend. We are getting MORE than we paid for in spades.</p>
<p>As has been already pointed out, we're all talking based on what we know of our own state u's. I can imagine holding a different opinion about William & Mary, Univ. of NC Chapel Hill, Univ. of VA, and Univ. of Mich. than of our flagship.</p>
<p>The brush seems very broad to me here. The 100+ rated state school gets painted negatively here without regard to specific programs. We just lump it all together as a state school and that is not representative of great programs in lower ranked schools.</p>
<p>I think you could take an engineer from Colorado School of Mines, Georgia Tech, or Cal Poly and they would do fine in most ivy league engineering programs, which are not that highly rated anyway. Other schools also have very highly regarded programs inside an average university. Vet schools come to mind in many of the State programs around the country.</p>
<p>My experience and my son's is very different from edad's but the majors may be different and the schools different. I don't think you can be so broad on assumptions about quality and rigor here.</p>
<p>right. Our flagship is supposed to be very good for engineering and some programs like pharmacy.</p>
<p>doubleplay, it also helps the UF is a top 50 university.</p>
<p>Sometimes the cost savings of attending a state univ. is partially eaten up because students have difficulty getting enrolled in their required classes in the necessary sequence so that they can graduate on time. This is caused by overcrowding.</p>