You get what you paid for...

Parents Forum
141

<p>I don't know how prevalent this it but our youngest had to pick up an important sequence class in drop-add because it was closed out during regular registration. Apparently this happens a lot, but everyone who is persistent ends up getting in. The reason is, 2000 people sign up for the next course in the sequence, but 200 or so will fail the first class (and get automatically bumped by the computer when the grades come in), or drop the second class because they got a C or D and are switching majors. Hence hundreds of students who got shut out during regular registration end up getting in anyway. It's kind of like what the airlines do in reverse- if they were to keep opening up sections for everyone who registers, they'd end up with hundreds of empty seats.</p>

<p>Another trick the students who have earlier registration times do is booking up classes for their friends during regular registration. They'll register for a class at a prime time, then make plans to 'drop' the class as their friend 'adds' it later on in the process. </p>

<p>Even another trick that REALLY messes up the system, is that students will overbook their classes, attend the first meetings, then decide which class on their schedule to drop, creating even more open seats by the end of the first week.</p>

<p>Many students just don't show up for the first class, and in the labs, the professors are allowed to automatically drop their names from the roster. It's commonplace for students to attend labs they aren't registered for on the first day, then get added to the class roster on the spot. Sort of like flying 'stand by'.</p>

<p>If worse comes to worst, they can contact the professor directly and many times he will pull strings and get them into the class.</p>

<p>The thing is, you just gotta be resourceful, ready to exploit opportunities, and persistent.</p>

<p>Then you have the students who just don't want to take a class at an 'inconvenient' time, so when they go to register and find out the only available sections are at 8 AM or on Friday afternoon, they wait until the next semester and get behind. Or students who get frustrated when they don't get in during regular registration, and just give up.</p>

142

<p>So hard to make generalizations here. State Us are different. Honors programs are different. Kids are different.
Many honors programs try to take away the perceived negatives of attending a state U - especially for those that aren't ranked in the top 10. Early registration , smaller classes (some offer more than others), better advising, better dorms. Many will give credit for APs (with 5s or 4s) so kids can skip basic classes and take a whole semester off to do a coop or study abroad. These are REAL differences that need to be considered.
And that's the only thing I'll feel strongly about. That good options are at least considered. I can't see my kid dictating terms there. Take a look at a good option that might not cost as much - if you don't like it - explain why and we'll discuss. I don't like going in with assumptions that private is always better or expensive is always better. It depends....</p>

143

<p>Interesting companion discussion going on in the thread titled "boring classes at top schools."<br>
It does seem to me that we go round and round in these discussions. An Ivy or similar caliber school is the best environment for intellectual kids -- except when it isn't.
Honors programs and small LACs can engage these kids just as well -- except when they don't.
And so on.</p>

144

<p>An excited student can do well just about anywhere. I started discussions in a class of 700--it can be done. I've been in good classes with over 1,000 students. I've been in tiny classes that weren't as good. But if you want to learn, you can stir up excitement anywhere. What would bum me out as a parent would be paying $50,000 per year for profs who didn't care. My huge classes were at big state U and were almost free (back in the day). But a lot of the profs did seem to care.</p>

145

<p>I agree bethievt, at least in my experience (which has been my own alma mater and my kids' college) that there is some responsibility on the part of the student. I tell this to my kids... they have to actually GO to their professors' office hours, TALK to them, TALK to the TAs, make an APPOINTMENT with their academic advisor, work with the dean, ombudsman, whatever to get scheduling problems worked out, go investigate opportunities on campus. It's not all going to be done for them every semester and problems come up, as well as difficult teachers. Your boss is going to be difficult, your wife and kids are going to be difficult, you aren't going to agree with everything and everyone you come in contact with. Deal with it and make the best of it.</p>

<p>Of course, I wouldn't be saying this if I were paying 40K a year. I'd be saying KISS MY A<strong>, and kiss my kids' a</strong>es while you're at it.</p>

146

<p>In my neighborhood there are lots of chain restaurants. There must be at least a dozen within 2 miles: pizza hut, taco bell, mcdonalds, wendys, burger king, IHOP..... Judging by the supply, a lot of people must believe they can get an adequate meal at any of them. You will certainly get your share of grease and salt. We also have several moderately priced restaurants and diners. Some are pretty bad and some are decent. You need to spend some time trying to pick a good one and even then you will often either need to make the most of it or send the meal back and get something else. If it is really bad, you can always leave and go somewhere else. We also have several really good restaurants in the neighbor. One is a chain restaurant; most are privately owned. You can almost always count on getting a good meal but you will pay at least twice as much as the other choices. Even then you might get something you don't like. I tend to prefer the Italian restaurant, but it also seems that the Greek and Thai restaurants are popular. I don't go out to eat very often, but even so, I try to keep the costs down. I tend to go for the early bird or other specials. If you do your homework you can get a really go meal at a reasonable cost.</p>

147

<p>And to continue the analogy... Three times in my life I've gone to restaurants rated with three stars by the folks at Michelin. It was worth every penny. (And it was a lot of pennies.)</p>

148

<p>These analogies are interesting - but limited. So who is comparable to the McDonalds and Taco Bells? Are we drawing a comparison to state schools here? Community colleges? Are there any universities you know of that have over 10,000 locations across the country with a limited menu of classes that are delivered by low paid workers? Maybe University of Phoenix...maybe. Is the three star Michelin supposed to be Penn or Cornell? Interesting that there's another thread complaining about huge boring classes at these schools.<br>
I happen to hate fast food places...but I think there are many state school gems. Community colleges can also be an excellent choice for some. So what schools are the taco bells?? Insulting...</p>

149

<p>edad, you have a very good point. I have a friend who had the same experience as you work in a state university. 'some student quality to the point that prof dosn't want to teach'. And if a professor gets enough research grant and fund, they don't need to teach any class....yes its true you can get good education in a public school if you go out of your way to look for. And on top of it, be sure first get into that 'right' state u. But is the tuition difference worth the effort? Nowadays you have to pay 30k ~ 40k easy for an out of state student.</p>

150

<p>What the analogy points out is that there are no guarantees, but you can limit your risk of a bad meal by selecting the more expensive place with the great reputation.</p>

151

<p>And you can make a gourmet meal at home . . . c'mon. I agree the analogy is limited and rather insulting.</p>

152

<p>Not really. Some institutions deserve insults. Some some serve grey-water hot dogs. You can also find really good hot dog stands with great dogs and fixings. You don't need to spend a lot of money. You don't need to go home and dress up. The food really tastes great after a day at the beach. Our local State U is probably at the level of Fridays. We have others that match Wendy's. Not that there is anything wrong with Wendy's. They have a pretty good salad bar. The lettuce is probably the same as used by the expensive restaurants. Somehow it just doesn't taste as good with plasticware on paper plates. Maybe it is the dressing.</p>

153

<p>The top-ranked schools are top-ranked using some objective measures as well as some subjective ones. The rankings aren't perfect, not everyone agrees on the validity of every measure, and not every characteristic evaluated by USNWR or whomever is relevant to every student. And, of course, not everyone can be admitted anyway. That's why it's a personal and individual choice, there's no right answer for everyone, and why these threads, without fail, always end in people becoming defensive or feeling insulted.</p>

<p>Another reason, however, why I believe people become upset is that our culture values democracy and equality. We Americans pride ourselves on our diversity and acceptance of all. I'm OK, you're OK, we're all OK. Check out the thread about bright slackers for another example of this. Therefore, we really balk at the perception that an institution, by accepting some and denying others, is implying that some students are more "worthy" of admission to their schools than others. Therefore, the response is to attack both the "worthiness" of those schools and the validity of the rankings.</p>

154

<p>Having been in the restaurant business for over a decade in my former life, including as an owner, I think there are 3 catagories of patrons of the few long term "best" reputation high end establishments. </p>

<p>One group patronizes the restaurant BECAUSE they want to be able to brag to their friends that they go to such "fine" and expensive places. They often are so intimidated by the aura that they really don't seek out and don't care about the overall experience. They could be served anything off the menu and would pronounce it devine, whether it is or not. Often they order the most expensive items just to say they did. These patrons are the sheep and help the restaurant pay the bills. </p>

<p>One group patronizes the restaurant for the quality of the experience. They ask about what is fresh and often ask that things be prepared that aren't even on the menu. They will actually assess what they receive and give feedback to the wait staff and manager. By the way, these are the patrons you look forward to having come in to dine.</p>

<p>An one group comes once, looks for faults (real and imaginary) and leaves "dissatisfied" to proudly announce to all who will listen that the "Toney Restaurant" was vastly overrated. These patrons bring down everyone's actual experience while in the restaurant. </p>

<p>Then there are the non-patrons who "wouldn't be caught dead" in an over-priced place like that. No food is worth those prices. </p>

<p>From reading this thread, seems like there are these same catagories of people when it comes to college.</p>

155

<p>07Dad, you're a hoot.</p>

<p>What college is the best for me -- someone who feels a lot better about the dining experience if she has a coupon? : )</p>

156

<p>Then you have the people who spend half their disposable income on dining out at expensive restaurants, foresaking the rest of their family's needs and letting their house fall down around them because they can't afford to keep it up, then complaining that they haven't saved enough for their own retirement and can't live off of social security.</p>

157

<p>07Dad, did you ever have patrons show up wearing T shirts and flipflops and then complain when you did not serve them?</p>

158

<p>wow, we're getting really simplistic here.
Sorry, but I don't fit neatly into any one of the patron categories described. I think most folks are a bit more complex than this.<br>
I also think making a commitment to college is just a bit different than deciding where to go to eat (sarcasm).<br>
I do agree that most people tend to rationalize and defend their choices, especially if those choices lead to good outcomes. And yes, those who make less prestigious choices may get their backs up when folks start talking about the need to surround their kids with quality programs and quality students. It's pretty hard to say that without implying that others are making choices to surround their kids with mediocre offerings - taco bell, Fridays, whatever.<br>
These arguments are usually not very productive...and are not based on facts. Anecdotes, analogies, rationalizations. Fun to read though, or I wouldn't be here I guess.</p>

159

<p>No, the people who show up wearing T shirts and flip flops are allowed in, as long as they are paying in cash. The patrons using coupons have to be in sportsjacket and tie.</p>

160

<p>07dad--love your analogies! Unfortunately, we had no "coupon" for D's undergrad school but felt her "dining experience" was worth the price. She has a great "coupon" for grad school though--couldn't be better!</p>