You get what you paid for...

Parents Forum
161

<p>
[quote]
What college is the best for me -- someone who feels a lot better about the dining experience if she has a coupon?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Youdon'tsay: Line up your choices by the total tab, less the coupon amount. Remember: (1) you can get indigestion from eating at any restaurant and (2) pay cash, no diner's remorse when the credit card bills mount up. </p>

<p>I find eating the same type food boring, so I go for variety, including ethnic cuisines, which often cost less than a steady diet of haute cuisine. </p>

<p>Also, haute cuisine often draws snobs as well as gourmands. True gourmands seek out and really enjoy all kinds of well prepared food, but SNOBS tend to stick to the places other SNOBS go to. And, to be honest, who wants to be around a bunch of SNOBS? Also, the waitstaff and management get complacent since they buy into and play to the snobbery.</p>

162

<p>07DAD
You said it best.
Like UDon't Say, I recall being young and going to Hasty Pudding Restaurant at Harvard, with a coupon. It still cost a lot, splitting a dessert of homemade lemon sorbert and truffles appetizer. The atmosphere and service were impeccable. </p>

<p>Time will tell. I went to honors program at a big U, and served as UG rep in the dept.(also student council and school play). I had my pick of grad schools. Still, I have nothing to do now with the school nor classmates. My S at a small private U. Time will tell if he feels a connection and returns for alumni events, stays in touch with peers, etc. We both received a good education, but I know he is "dining" while I "ate".</p>

<p>Had my college experience been more fulfilling, I would have been more open to encourage DS to find a less expensive college, rather than one that "fit" him. It will be interesting to see how S influences his future children.</p>

163

<p>O7Dad -- Bravo!</p>

<p>Correct me if I'm wrong, but before the late 1960's, weren't the obstacles to enrollment at the Ivies more socioeconomic than intellectual? That is, you went there if a) you went to certain preparatory schools; b) you came from the right family; or c) you could afford it. Weren't many of these schools the home of the "Gentleman's C"?
No one is arguing with the fact that these schools have huge endowments, stellar faculty, very smart and accomplished students, good to outstanding facilities, and opportunities for internships, research, networking. If my daughter had been interested, I would have encouraged her to apply. BUT -- the current image of Ivies and near-Ivies as the absolute be-all and end-all of the educational experience -- the holy grail of college, as it were -- seems to me to be more a combination of marketing and the consumerist desires of affluent baby boomers.</p>

164

<p>
[quote]
Unfortunately, we had no "coupon" for D's undergrad school but felt her "dining experience" was worth the price. She has a great "coupon" for grad school though--couldn't be better!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is a reasonable way to get value for your dining dollars. It is similar to "frequent diner" cards. You pay full price for "x" meals (they usually stamp your card) to get a discount or freebie on a later meal.</p>

165

<p>Well, I think its a pretty silly analogy,myself. Picturing the upscale surroundings, the impeccable waitstaff , fancy dinnerware and the drumroll of being offered the wonderous entree....which ends up being a steak the size of a quarter with some unrecognizable bit of veggie presented like a piece of artwork on a plate w/ golden drizzeled sauces. All show. No substance. And hey, it cost me $50 so it must have been great! Sorry, folks, I had to comment. Carry on.</p>

166

<p>
[quote]
Then you have the people who spend half their disposable income on dining out at expensive restaurants, foresaking the rest of their family's needs and letting their house fall down around them because they can't afford to keep it up, then complaining that they haven't saved enough for their own retirement and can't live off of social security.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes--we had a policy to not run tabs for certain professions. Seems they believe that there is a money tree and that they can always shake it. Did not work out that way in the various economic crashes along the way.</p>

<p>The sadder situation was the couple who came in for that one special meal. Usually the male really wanted to treat the other. It broke my heart to overhear them agonize over what to order. They would have had a better special experience if they hadn't been worried over the price. BTY--I participated in providing meals for the homeless shelters. Not everyone is blessed enough to be able to dine where ever they wish.</p>

167

<p>LOL, sax. I'm not sure that analogy applies to college (dime sized food, etc), but I can relate to the portions at some of these 'fine' restaurants --the little marble sized dollop of mashed potato, two green beans on the side and the balsamic wine reduction (something they squeezed all over the plate from an old resused ketchup bottle). After leaving the restaurant, you go to Dairy Queen for a sundae.</p>

168

<p>doubleplay and edad</p>

<p>
[quote]
did you ever have patrons show up wearing T shirts and flipflops and then complain when you did not serve them?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
No, the people who show up wearing T shirts and flip flops are allowed in, as long as they are paying in cash. The patrons using coupons have to be in sportsjacket and tie.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, this was harder to handle than you might think. Patrons with LOTS and LOTS of money often dress "down," shall we say, and they pay cash AND bring the coupons.</p>

<p>Coupons are offered for a reason: to build business and/or introduce new people to your establishment. Why would anyone NOT use them, even if they can pay the full tab? Its factored into the cost of doing business.</p>

169

<p>It was a stab at metaphor- the cash payers are the EDs and rich legacies/deep pockets that have a lower bar to clear, hence they get to dress down. The applicants needing merit scholarships go into a much more competitive RD pool, plus they are generally higher achievers (i.e. the jacket and ties). Poor attempt, I know.</p>

170

<p>doubleplay, I got it!</p>

<p>I'm so glad I live in a place where you can tell a fancy restaurant because people are wearing their good flip-flops.</p>

171

<p>I guess I have never been to a fancy restaurant with dime-sized decorative food. I have been to several restaurants that I thought were very good. As I remember all of the customers wore shoes.</p>

172

<p>I like to go to restaurants where I'm surrounded by people like me, who really enjoy quality food and quality service. Maybe it's just me but I'm willing to pay big money for that, even if I have to sacrifice other things in life. I don't care if there are good cheap options out there. I know that by eating this food and surrounding myself with these folks, my life will be healthier and happier. No doubt about it.<br>
There's a certain prestige to where I go and I love the bragging rights. I bring my kids too so I can show them what money can buy. If fact, my oldest out and out refuses to go to the most popular restaurant in town. Too pedestrian. And the crowds just drag everyone down. Some say the food is actually pretty good there...but I really don't think so. Of course, I'm not saying those people who attend this particular restaurant are inferior in any way...it's just not my choice. I've had dinner at place like that before and I know the deal... Going to that place would be like going to the dentist for me...just painful really.<br>
Recently, one of our favorite exclusive restaurants has been very difficult to get into. So they started an "early reservation" system. Sign up for a res 6 months in advance, and you're in. But of course, you need to live up to the commitment. No cancellations allowed. A brilliant idea! Now, we're set.</p>

173

<p>I work hard for my money and am usually pretty frugal. I don't care much about prestige and status. It is nice to have candles on the table, an attractive atmosphere and be around customers who are serious about good food. Mostly I just like good food. Recently we wanted to take our daughter out to dinner for her birthday. We seemed to have come down to two reasonable choices. We were lucky enough to get a reservation for John's steakhouse. There is nothing not to like about John's. John's is located in a restored building in the historic district. There is a five star chef, very good service and very good food. You can even opt for valet parking. The only problem with John's is the cost. A lot of people who go there probably don't care, but we are on a budget and need to cut back on other expenses in order to go. They do have some coupons but even with a coupon the cost is high. Our other choice was Stone's bar and grill. Most people in my neighborhood eat at Stone's. Lots of people like the big screen TV's showing all the games and they seem to like the big pitchers of beer. You don't need a reservation for Stone's, but there is a sign: "No shoes, no shirt, no service." Personally, I have never understood combining a restaurant with a sports bar. I watch a few games at home and I do enjoy a glass of wine with dinner, but it seems like quite a few people go to Stone's just for the TV's and beer. There are some tables away from the bar area, but even there the din from the bar is loud and the waiter/waitress staff is spread thin. I guess you can get service if you shout. There is another problem with Stone's. My daughter wanted surf and turf. Stone's doesn't have fresh seafood, but I think they do have fish sticks. We figured it wouldn't matter that much. You know teenagers. They are fickle and change their minds. I am sure she would have found something on the menu that she liked. Stone's has definitely got a lot of advantages. The cost is very reasonable. You don't need a reservation. You don't need to get dressed up - except for the shoes and shirt. All of our neighbors think the food is great. I am not so sure about the food. I sometimes think all that beer can cloud your judgement. We stopped by for lunch once and the hamburgers were really greasy. Well, it is a tough decision. We told our daughter that if she wants to go to John's, we will get her a couple of music CD's but she is not getting that ipod for a birthday present.</p>

174

<p>toneranger said at post #128:</p>

<p>
[quote]
My son also worked his butt off in hs and got into a very selective honors program at his state u, along with lots of scholarship $. Chose it over some really good privates. He loves it. His classes this semester are ALL small and are quite challenging. He has quite a few friends outside of the honors program - some motivated students who are doing great - others who aren't the best students in the world but have other things to offer (one of his friends is a top golfer in the golf mgt program - and yes he's learned quite a bit from this guy - not about Plato of course).
So yeah, go ahead and feel good that your s is surrounded by kids who worked hard to get where they are. As long as you don't trash what other kids choose to do. Or look down on them. Can't tell from your email if that's was your intent...kind of sounded that way though.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Apparently toneranger has two sons. </p>

<p>We had older patrons who had one child who would rather die than be seen anywhere but the "top" restaurant; a regular chip off the old block, so to speak. If the restaurant was already booked when the call for reservations was made, virtual panic set in. Nothing else would do. It would get crazy listening to the "theories" of why the restaurant should make an exception and find a table. </p>

<p>The other child was less appreciative of the value of the homogeneity of the crowd and the exculsiveness of the experience. If the restaurant was out of an item, he'd go with the flow. His sibling would be outraged but would stiffle himself rather that imply any criticism since, after all, this was "the Restaurant." But, he would put on airs and make sure that everyone knew he was miffed, and that he had certain rights and expectations, this being "that level of restaurant." The other brother would just smile and shake his head.</p>

175

<p>You got me dad07 - I was "playing." Our family is really the opposite of what I presented. Tried to step in those shoes for a bit...didn't feel good. If my s ever "out and out refused" to go to a restaurant because it was "pedestrian", I'd be happy to leave him home to eat peanut butter.
It's just that this is what some of the folks on this board sound like to me (not just on this thread). Really annoying. Over the top stuff for me...but maybe it sounds like a normal post for some of our readers...</p>

176

<p>edad - so I'm gathering that your comparing Stones to big state U. Beer, sports, shouting for service. Yeah, I get it. But it doesn't hold up since many state schools have a huge number of offerings for majors (not a more limited menu).
And respected places like Duke and Vandy (certainly not cheap) have plenty of sports and beer too. Best of both worlds I'd say if you can get in. :)</p>

177

<p>toneranger-
Your post #172 got me for a minute.....Didn't sound like you. I guess it's early....I'm going for a cup of coffee (lol).</p>

178

<p>It's fascinating to me that so many people say, "Oh, a good student can get a great education anywhere. So just go to the cheapest school you can and fight for yourself." That may be true for a certain type of student with a certain "out front" personality.</p>

<p>But if that's true for all "good students", then why did we bother with AP or honors classes in high school? Surely our "good students" could have learned just as much in standard classes if they had simply asserted themselves. Why did we bother to live in communities with "competitive" schools that value education, or pay private school tuition? Why do so many complain that their local public schools (primary and/or secondary) are "lousy"? A smart student can learn anywhere, right?</p>

<p>Since that's clearly not true on the high school level, at least not for every student, why does everyone keep suggesting that it's true on the college level? Sorry, but it's not. Are there students who can "buck the tide" and can push themselves to find opportunities that might otherwise not exist? Yes. Are there students who are laid-back and need to have a challenge to which they can rise, but may not want to fight the prevailing climate for four years? Also yes. While the former may flourish anywhere, the latter may not. It all depends on the kid.</p>

<p>And different families value different aspects of schools. Our family doesn't give a fig for organized sports. My d couldn't care less if she never goes to a football game. Would she be able to find like-minded students at a Big 10 school? Sure, but she didn't want to have to search for them, or fight the prevailing culture and feel like an outsider. Other families have lives that revolve around sports, and couldn't imagine going to a school with a Div. III football team, or (horrors!) no football team. Does that make one wrong and the other right? Does that make one more "elitist" (G-d, I hate that word!) than the other? Not in my book.</p>

<p>Some people trade in their cars every 2-4 years, and have very specific requirements in their cars. I don't care what my car looks like as long as it's reliable, safe and gets me where I want to go for a reasonable cost. I keep my cars as long as possible, until the cost of repair/maintenance gets too high. To me, there's no "value" in trading cars. Does that make me "right" and others "wrong"? I don't think so. My values are simply different.</p>

<p>Same goes for education, and paying for college. What is a "good value" for my family and my student may not be for yours. What is clear, though, is that "cost" is not the only variable, nor does higher cost always mean a better education. But "value" is always a trade-off between cost and quality. And quality is that elusive intangible that each family needs to decide for itself on the basis of available data. Is that data perfect? No. But it's the best we've got.</p>

<p>And wondering whether our kids would have done as well at the "cheaper school" is an exercise in futility. We can all wonder about "the road not taken". But since we can't go back and take that road now, we'll never know, will we?</p>

179

<p>I think the symbolism is starting to border on ugly. It's easier to say some rather disrespectful things about people when you can hide it behind a metaphor, just like it's easier to say ugly things when you're hiding behind an online identity. Maybe we should go back to more a literal discussion of public vs. private. The greasy hamburgers and drunken shouting patrons are a little bit of a cheap shot on public university students.</p>

180

<p>Chedva:</p>

<p>Although both my kids attended/attend top schools, I do think that students can get a great education at many many institutions of higher learning, though, of course, not at all. College is not like high school. In most cases, students do not have to go through hoops before they are allowed into certain classes; they can skip the intro ones and get into more challenging ones, sometimes after having taken the prerequisites in high school (those famous APs) sometimes by talking their way into certain classes (as my S is about to do, I believe). As well, the range of offerings at universities is huge, not only within one subject but across disciplines that are not offered in high school. How many courses in US history are offered in high school? at any university, I would say, at least a dozen, and most of them not the typical survey class one gets in high school.<br>
But even in high schools that are not considered terrific, where there is a wide range of student abilities, motivated students can get a great education. Our high school, where the SAT average is well below the national average, consistently sends students to top 10 institutions of higher learning.</p>