<p>i was being sarcastic..sorry if i offended anyone....lol</p>
<p>Wallyworld - I saw that. It was for the MFA in Acting. I think it was ranked Yale, UCSD, Tisch, Washington and Delaware.</p>
<p>I didnt see the article just the quote on UW's web site. The US N&WR quote first spoke of the general department then the grad program. Here is what it said.</p>
<p>"The UW school of drama is one of the best training programs in the country..... US N&WR ranked its graduate program in acting, directing and design as fourth in the nation." </p>
<p>I'll give a little on the MFA program as I have heard some good things from two graduates I know (one working one not) but the Princeton review quote said verbatim "The undergraduate program has been ranked by the PR as one of the top five undergraduate drama programs in the country.</p>
<p>Gimme a break!</p>
<p>Unfortunately theaterboy, you have some misinformation:</p>
<p>1) OCU has ONE musical theater department. They have one set of teachers that teach all musical theater majors. Are you referring to the fact that you can take music theater courses without being a music theater major?</p>
<p>2) There is no such thing currently as a "triple threat major". There hasn't been for the past three years. The major that use to go under this name is the "theater performance" degree. It has some facets of the MT major but is not the MT major.</p>
<p>3) Your assumption that there is one "good" program for musical theater students and one for "non-talented" theater students who do not get stage time is completely wrong and a complete lie. Besides the MT major, students may be accept the BM or Theater Performance degree. Students from many of those degrees programs have been cast in main stage, spotlight and student directed projects. Our recent production of "Parade" proves that point quite clearly.</p>
<p>In the future, you may want to state who you received this "information" from as I know of no voice teacher who would ever state anything like you mention. Stating an opinion is one thing. Making outright lies is another. If you feel strongly that what you say is fact, then please provide the necessary information as the school will be happy to verify it. </p>
<p>As always, it is best to go straight to the school to get correct information about programs, majors and such. For Oklahoma City University, that would be Mary Mowry, Student Services Coordinator. You can email Mary a <a href="mailto:mamowry@okcu.edu">mamowry@okcu.edu</a>. She'll be happy to help!</p>
<p>Thank you ocuMTinfo for setting things straight. This is a lesson that the best way to get information from a school is not from someone not affiliated with the school, but rather from the school itself, as ocuMTinfo already said...but I think that needs to be reiterated.</p>
<p>Chris</p>
<p>Hey, fishbowlfreshmen, lay off the money grubbers. :) Among those "grubbers" are the businessmen and women who run the big Broadway theaters and make the financing of musicals, straight plays and other performances possible. And let's face it: wouldn't we all like to have enough money that we didn't have to worry about it? :) I think that's true.
I am sure you were just kidding, but it's not in good form to put down what other people do for a living. I am sure there are more than a few pre-med or public health majors who think that people who want to sing, dance and act for a living are self indulgent egomaniacs who don't want to make the world a better place. You know and I know that that isn't true, that most performers are very caring, smart and sensitive people. Judge not, lest ye be judged, and all that jazz.
Just couldn't resist sticking my Mom nose in. :):)
L</p>
<p>Hey, NotMamaRose,
Lighten up with that Mama nose. :) Had I wanted to be derogatory to an entire way of making a living, Id have used "Suit Jockey," Bean Counter, or Capitalist Swine. :p</p>
<p>money-grubber
noun
1. derog, colloq
Someone who greedily acquires as much money as possible.
Thesaurus: penny-pincher, Scrooge, miser, materialist.
Derivative: money-grubbing
adj, noun
Greedy to acquire as much money as possible
Thesaurus: grasping, miserly, acquisitive, mercenary.</p>
<p>Pigs if you will. Not to be confused with ethical businesspeople and financiers who have the greater good in mind beyond just lining their wallets and maximizing shareholder profits. But, Gawd how I loathe acting like I enjoy myself at their stuffy fundraisers ... Hey, my new stepdad is a financial advisor and is helping out with part of my tuition. I'd have settled for a school I didn't like as much to stay out of debt were it not for that ... Besides, I might have to marry one myself some day to support my acting habit. ;) jk</p>
<p>Fishbowl, you are definitely and obviously one smart young cookie! I have met more than a few "stuffed suits" in my day, so I think we are on the same wavelength about that. I think the best business is one that makes money by providing people with things that they either need or that they don't need, but that gives them pleasure without harming them. (That eliminates the cigarette manufacturers, dealers of illicit drugs, etc.) In my opinion, there's nothing at all unethical about a person becoming a multimillionaire because he was clever enough to invent a new computer program and market it before anyone else did.
We certainly could argue about the relative merits and disadvantages of capitalism, but this is not the forum. Suffice to say that it is far from a perfect system, but that it <em>is</em> one that served enough people well enough that there are thousands of folks who are risking their necks and lives to try to get into our country to take part in it. Once again, this is not the time or place, but we can engage in some lively conversation if you wanna PM me! :) I enjoy "talking" with you and will be one of the first in line for a ticket to whatever you are starring in when you hit the big time.
NotMamaRose but DefinitelyAnnoying :) :)</p>
<p>To fishbowlfreshman: Whether you understand it or not, the pursuit of maximizing shareholder profits is a noble endeavor. Many men and women have worked very hard their entire lives to accomplish this. To imply such people are pigs or "Capitalist Swine" is beyond the pale.</p>
<p>Speaking for my Wall Street money grubbing brothers and sisters I was not offended by Fishbowls comments. The industry has earned any derogatory remarks it receives. While there are lots of us who run ethical practices and create tremendous wealth legally there are also many who have sold their soles to make it at the expense of others. The later being who Fishbowl was speaking of. </p>
<p>I have given this whole nexus of finances and actors a good deal of thought and will share a few observations. To the uninitiated, finances are gender and vocation blind, (money is money right?) but that simply isnt the case. There are some very unique challenges financially for actors both successful and struggling and even more so for women. In some ways actors finances are like the professional athletes I work with. Its not just the instability of the income stream and the need for resources to move/travel frequently and continue to invest in yourself, theres the whole mate thing.</p>
<p>While the following is a generalization its not gross. I have seen it and researched it enough to claim it truth more often then not. First, because actors are spending so much time pursuing their careers there is not much focus on finding a mate and settling down. So, the benefits of a two income household shortly after college tend to be absent. Second, the nomadic life style is not conducive to such either. Then there is the worst part. A marriage between an actor and the steady as a rock provider type with a good stable job is not likely to happen. Oh sure, they could fall in love and marry but it is heading for a showdown eventually. At some point the rock is going to get tired of his wife (or husband) out late all the time, traveling & moving around. So its either she compromises career or we are back to the single income household. So, actors frequently date and marry other actor types which has its own set of problems (mostly I speak financially). </p>
<p>The money part can also affect your career. How many hs drama teachers gave up acting for the steady paycheck? Boat loads. Some very talented. It can affect the quality and enjoyment of your work also. If you have to take jobs you dont enjoy just to keep afloat, that gets old after a while and can wear you down. </p>
<p>Most kids with a passion for acting will not make it professionally and the financial aspect is often the tipping point. To those who will meet with success managing finances well is going to enhance their career. To them, my advice is to get an advisor early (first paycheck!) who can help you navigate the issues of savings, investment, tax issues(Avoidance and balancing deferral with liquidity) and the issues of being self employed, part of a union, etc. Unfortunately most advisors dont know what they are doing so a bit of discernment is in order. I have created three weeder questions for a prospective advisor that if anyone wants PM me. </p>
<p>Also, while this acting schools stuff is new to Wally, if anyone wants to know the best schools to learn how to grub for money, Im your guy. ;)</p>
<p>Now that I have put everyone to sleep .or maybe after paying for your kids summer activities you can still afford a summer vacation unlike us?? So, I will continue to talk with myself.</p>
<p>Two additional points about my post above. </p>
<p>1) Some on this forum have the oh poor actors having to wait tables to support my acting habit starving artist notion. Certainly there are lots of them, but then this is a unique business where the actor decides when to give it up. Some of you were offended when I said that most aspiring actors will not make it. Yet if I said, most hs football players with a love for the game will never see the NFL nobody would flinch. The difference is that nobody is waiting tables into their 30s hoping to get into the NFL. My point is actually that while there are starving artists, there are many doing just fine. We know 4 actors in their 40s who will probably never be household names who have great lives (all of them work in different places). Their work is pretty stable as are their finances. Two of them own homes and all of them love what they are doing. As to the fate, randomness, luck, contacts notion I dont doubt that those can contribute to the outcome of a career. Yet the common thread of these people are a natural ability and a passion that has driven motivation that has never wavered.</p>
<p>2) If your child is concerned by the potential financial instability now or planning a back up then maybe acting isnt for them as a profession. The kids I have spoken with who have acting in their hearts dont have any other choice than to pursue it in their minds. Sure maybe do something else later (theater related) but for now this is it. One poster said they wanted to attend an MT program that allowed students to pursue other interests and then they are surprised when they dont land a lead on Broadway. Poor Johnnys in NY barely able to make ends meet, he just cant seem to get a part, good thing he got that MBA concurrent with his MT to fall back on! Maybe your surprised but I am not. You were hedging your bet all along and guess what other talented kids were doing while you were pursuing other interests</p>
<p>Wally, you can't generalize like that with any degree of accuracy. Many kids who are studying at competitive BFA programs do indeed have other interests. It's not because they want a 'back-up', it's because they have a true interest in more than just being onstage. That doesn't mean that they have less of a chance of being successful. My D is double majoring because she has an additional interest, not because she is worried that she won't 'make it'. She is an accomplished and published playwright in addition to being a talented actor. She continues to write as well as perform, and her summer job is a product of both of those talents. She's not unique in the group of actors both at the college and professional levels that we know.</p>
<p>A close family friend finished her degree at Columbia in Sociology while performing eight shows a week on Broadway. She went to school full-time during the day and did the show at night. She continues that role now and has returned to school to study Art and Graphic Design. Another friend, also in a Broadway show for the past three years, has established her own theatre company in the city with a few other Broadway professionals and regularly work with new playwrights putting on short run productions. </p>
<p>Another friend who has been in a long-running Broadway show for seven years has pursued his own music on the side during that entire time, as do several of his castmates. They routinely hold gigs at clubs in Manhattan on the night that their show is dark. A few of them are also writers and have had shows in the Fringe Festival in the city or in the NY Musical Theatre Festival. These are just a few of the working and successful Broadway actors that we know. In fact, I can't really think of ANY who do NOT do more than just act. Seriously.</p>
<p>Many, many of the kids who pursue theatre have other interests, whether complementary or totally separate. The actors who tend to be successful, and happy, are generally very bright, well-trained, passionate individuals who are very involved in many things and don't just limit themselves to their being onstage.</p>
<p>alwaysamom - </p>
<p>I agree totally. One of my closest friends is a guy who left a college MT program to do a Bway show, not b/c he was dying to leave college, but b/c he was "hot" in the market and even his faculty advised him to "go now, make that money, you can always come back." He has been working at the Bway level ever since (3 years), but keeps the door with his college open, not to return for the rest of the MT degree, but to complete the pre-med track he started as a double major with MT. (And he'll do it, too, b/c THAT is his passion - if the Bway shows keep coming, he already has a plan set up to do the same thing in NYC, obviously take time off when med school prevents him from working at night, and then returning to the theatre while practicing.) I always describe him as one of those people who does MT because he's GREAT at it and people will pay him A LOT of money to do MT, but whose real heart is in other places - at least part of it. He is not in the majority, but he's also not a total rarity - I know of others like him. So there's yet another situation to consider...</p>
<p>P.S. Oh yeah - I forgot to add - the financial riskiness of NOT performing when he was getting job offers was a big motivator in his leaving school, since he was paying all of his loan debt himself.</p>
<p>To anyone new to this forum or new to MT: When you read that these programs are very selective, BELIEVE it. Everyone believes in their child's talent but nothing can prepare you for this level of competition. It's as if your child is up for valedictorian of his high school and later finds out that there are 50 other kids with GPA's in the 4.5 range. These kids are the best of the best. No one should go into these auditions thinking they will have their choice of schools. You're lucky if you get one school saying "maybe." My advice: have a few back-up schools. Don't give up the dream but don't limit yourself either.</p>
<p>Wally World,</p>
<p>I beg to differ with you. There is no right way, or wrong way....as long as you are fullfilled along the journey. Your personal happiness is what will be the wind at one's back.</p>
<p>SUE</p>
<p>Yeah. I personally want the kind of training that leaves time for nothing else, but there are lots of legitimate paths to the goal whatever that may be. </p>
<p>Do correct me if Im wrong, but Im not so sure that some of the big name New York kids that never went to drama/MT school are all that useful as examples for college discussion. Not to say that some arent mad talented, but werent most of them seen by all the right people at a very young age and given the best coaching money could buy if out-and-out nepotism wasnt involved? If so, its a different world for those of us from the sticks. I never respond to the posts because who am I to say never, but I always shake my head when I see someone asking about their kid just moving to New York and going for it after distiguishing themselves locally in a few high school or community theatre musicals or whatever. Not to say that it cant happen, but how are they going to even get their foot in the door versus the kids whove been working on and off since they were knee high to a grasshopper and the top BFA and MFA grads who have spent years building their resumes and nurturing connections? Dont casting directors tend to go with the proven performers? Its not like theres any shortage of talent on the streets of New York or an abundance of roles for those in the 16 25 age range. Dont even the ones that do exist tend to be filled by more experienced actors who can play young? I realize that a whole litany of old-school performers that got there without any formal training can be cited, but what about the new blood? Isnt it a lot more competitive now with all these BFA schools around than when they were coming along in the 60s and 70s? Do any of you city folk who know people have thoughts on this?</p>
<p>fishbowl, I'm not sure who you're referring to as the "big name NY kids"? If you can enlighten me with that, I'll try to reply to the rest of your comment. :)</p>
<p>At least generalizations breathed some life into this forum. </p>
<p>Sue, yours is the best advice, I am not the best at smelling the roses.</p>
<p>Alwaysamom, CoachC; you remind me of my internship with the US Senate in DC as to how out of touch those people are with the rest of the world. In this field NYC attracts and employs the best of the best to which it sounds like you are. Your using one in a million examples is at best no more helpful than my generalizations.</p>
<p>So lets say you are a hs guidance counselor with a knowledge of MT and 10 kids come to you and state that they want to be a star on Broadway, want to study MT and double major in whatever (architecture, pre-med,etc)? How would you advise them? Something tells me that you advice would be more along the lines of my generalizations than your select super stars.</p>
<p>In business it frequently means they will do neither especially well (with exception). Peter Lynch dubbed it diworsification.</p>
<p>Wally, no need to be insulting. I don't see myself or CoachC as being so "out of touch" with the rest of the world. In actuality, I, and many in my family, have been a part of the theatre community for many years. I was not disputing your comment about most aspiring actors will not make it. I have made the same comment more than once on CC. It is a reality which many do not want to face. My comments, instead, were in response to your saying this:</p>
<p>"One poster said they wanted to attend an MT program that allowed students to pursue other interests and then they are surprised when they dont land a lead on Broadway. Poor Johnnys in NY barely able to make ends meet, he just cant seem to get a part, good thing he got that MBA concurrent with his MT to fall back on! Maybe your surprised but I am not. You were hedging your bet all along and guess what other talented kids were doing while you were pursuing other interests.</p>
<p>You specifically cited someone "on Broadway", and so I was giving you concrete examples of only some of the individuals whom I personally know who have been successful on Broadway, for extended periods of time, in open contrast to what you are claiming. I could probably name a dozen or more who are also currently in Broadway shows who would also fit that bill but I restrained myself because I thought I had proven my point that such generalizations as you made are not accurate. This has always been the case with many on Broadway, and also those who are successful in other theatre cities: Chicago, Toronto, Boston, London. If you think that these are anecdotal anomalies, you are mistaken. You would also be mistaken to assume that not many college aged actors don't also fall into the category which CoachC and I described. My examples are not in any way "one in a million".</p>
<p>I'm not a guidance counsellor but I have advised many students over the years who were interested in studying theatre, many of whom also had other interests. My advice to those was, and always would be, to pursue what their passion or passions are, to the best of their abilities. I have never, would I ever, advise someone that they would never be successful if they 'hedged their bets' by studying something in addition to theatre.</p>
<p>Wally - </p>
<p>I actually did the very thing you describe for 7 years in a public high school, where I was both an academic teacher and the head of the drama department. In the latter role, it was my job to advise all aspiring BFA auditionees. In that setting, I approached this as I have in every other educational theatre setting in which I have worked: through addressing each students individual interests, talents, current skill set, and work ethics; explaining the fundamentals of the business of the business (for the more starry-eyed students); and sharing relevant anecdotes such as the one I posted on this thread. I have friends and students who work at the top levels, who are struggling after many years, who have left the business, who have chosen to teach and work in small regional markets so as to be able to have a more normal family life, and every other imaginable scenario. Because there are so many truths of life in this business, not general rules, each anecdote is helpful to my students (and their parents) evaluative process. This, in fact, is the same process BFA programs use to equip their students to deal with an actors lifestyle: they offer hard facts (Equity contracts vs. non, info on taxes, getting agents, etc.), but they also bring in a constant stream of people working in the biz to share their incredibly diverse stories with the students. (This is in addition to the people who are brought in to conduct skill-based master classes.)</p>
<p>A great place to learn more about the diversity of actors paths to success is:
<a href="http://www.talkinbroadway.com/spot/%5B/url%5D">http://www.talkinbroadway.com/spot/</a></p>
<p>Yes, these are people who HAVE succeeded but they often share stories of their failures, which are even more instructive. Another wonderful source is the book Making It On Broadway, which is referenced in the resources thread above. You could also look at the archives of playbill.com, which has wonderful interviews each week. </p>
<p>And I stand my ground - 15 years of coaching and teaching and 10 years of performing have shown me that you can't generalize about "patterns" in this field.</p>