<p>When I read the OP, I thought about my brother. He self-medicated with marijuana due to anxiety. Unfortunately, after a few years smoking regularly and finally quitting, now he has to take anti-anxiety medication. It has helped him a lot, but of course as most prescriptions do, it has side effects.</p>
<p>There are many ways to achieve the same goals. I weaseled my way into graduate school by working at a college and taking a few classes for free. Working full-time and taking one or two classes at a time really helped me.</p>
<p>Remember that he will likely have to take a licensing exam to become even a PTA.</p>
<p>As for boys vs. girls, I feel that it is moreso individuals who have more or less trouble with our public school system as it is today. Some people are eager to please, male or female, and there is so much in public schools that is checking in boxes and filling in blanks. That is, if you do the annoying little stuff, you’ll move on to the harder stuff and hopefully not have to do as much that is annoying. It’s not that students who don’t do well (or don’t want to do well) at checking in boxes and filling in blanks are less intelligent, it’s that they really take issue with repetitiveness and “busy work” that too often characterizes our public school systems.</p>
<p>It is not an issue at all that he is a boy and struggling and she is a girl and not struggling. It depends more on the individual. It is so easy to compare people, but when it comes down to it, she is an individual and he is an individual. </p>
<p>As for neuropsych testing - please consider this as opposed to just getting him counseling or to see a psychiatrist. Check insurance coverage carefully though, it is expensive. What it does is look at many different areas, and can find specific deficits and strengths, in a way that ADHD screening can’t.</p>
<p>“Is it the boy thing?” - In many cases I think that is true. But not at our house. </p>
<p>We had 2 very bright kids, and it was the older DD that struggled when the hs work got too intense. The younger DS was a bit disorganized in ms, but he absolutely flourished in the same tough IB program that overwhelmed his older sister. Much of the difference was his drive to succeed, even when he didn’t like the coursework. Also I think he benefited from watching her stumble. </p>
<p>Hi. I haven’t read all the response before writing my own. My now 21 year old sounded alot like your son. All the issues, even worse. Grades fairly terrible high school, no motivation, pot smoking, sneaking out of the house, lying. OMG…I still shudder thinking about high school. We had him tested his sophomore year. He did not have classic ADHD, but many symptoms…more the exectutive functioning disorder symptoms. Google Executive Functioning and see if he fits any of those criteria. My son actually scored very high on working memory and speed processing. It was the executive dysfunction standing in his way.</p>
<p>First year of college was a disaster. We knew it would be, we just couldn’t stand him anymore and needed to separate and just wasn’t sure what to do with him. Fast forward 3 years to age 21. What a difference in maturity. Truly…3 years has made quite a difference. He seems more focused, we can talk and reason with him. He seems to care…but he still struggles. He is on meds…he says they do help him feel like doing things. I agree, he is very sluggish acting without them. When he’s on them, he just seems “normal”…like he has a spark to him. I cried and cried the first time he took them at age 16. After he was in college and his grades were abysmal, I told him I think he should just not take them anymore…they didn’t help because he doesn’t have inattentive ADD. Like I said, he’s sluggish, and he said they do help with feel as if he wants to get things done…so he continues on them.</p>
<p>I would get a new doctor for your son, he’s too old for a pediatrician. No kid wants to acknowledge that they have a disability. It’s hard and I feel for your son. I think he needs to be officially diagnosed, and that can cost well over $1000 and take several hours of testing and filling out questionnaires. But if he’s not willing, I’m not sure how you can force him.</p>
<p>It’s a hard road…but what I can tell you is that kids with these issues are approximately 3 years behind their peers in their ability to be able to execute a plan. They “want” it, but they just can’t seem to get from Point A to Point B until a little later. Hold on tight and keep encouranging. That pre-frontal cortex thinking will grow! </p>
<p>@conmama, 3-6 years behind, IMHO- and I often think 6 is MUCH more accurate. Your post paints a very familiar portrait. And at the end of all the testing, how did your son adapt his executive functioning skills? Are there any interventions to try? How was the testing useful? Is it just waiting for time to pass and his (delayed) skills to kick in?</p>
<p>And for lurkers, note that testing can be done for free (using “their” chosen providers) if your student has not yet graduated from high school. You need to request that your child be assessed for an IEP at their local public school (regardless of where they actually attend).</p>
<p>Yeah…3-6 years is probably more accurate, I agree. Well, at the end of testing he didn’t adapt at all other than take the meds…which didn’t seem to help anything other than he wasn’t sluggish. The testing was useful for us as it told us that: he didn’t have a learning disability, as they test for dyslexia and something else. He didn’t have classic ADHD. We found out his IQ. It was good to know these things. He met with psychologist and coaches which was a waste of time and money. The only money well spent during that time was when I went to meet the teen psychologist on my own to find out coping skills as parents…how to deal with him, etc. I think I met with him twice myself. He really did tell us that sometimes there is absolutely nothing that can be done for a child like ours other than waiting it out. That was SO not what we wanted to hear his Jr. Year of H.S…but that is exactly what is happening.</p>
<p>I did find out about “executive functioning” on my own through the internet. I’m surprised the psychologists didn’t tell us about that. He just gave him a diagnosis of AHDH-NOS (not otherwise specified)…meaning he didn’t have the classic inattentive or hyperactive, but enough symptoms that it was causing a disruption in his everyday life including school. But since the meds didn’t really help him with school…what would? It has been a stressful 6 years. But we are starting to see some light. First…his behavior and maturity. So much better, it was actually a nice 4 month summer and I hated to see him leave. How he has conversations with us. He’s going to class, handing in assignments…but still struggles with a class without doing ALL he can do. His grades aren’t great at all, but he’s not on academic probation so we let him stay.</p>
<p>It will probably take him 5 to 5 1/2 years to graduate. We tell him constantly that he’s going to have to explaing those Withdrawals and F’s to a prospective employer. I don’t think he really hears us, or that is too far down the road for him to really worry about (exectutive dysfunction). Yes…I think you are right…3-6 years.</p>
<p>Oh my god, I just found out he flunked his most recent English paper because he didn’t follow the format for the paper. Nothing wrong with the paper he wrote, and his writing skills aren’t too bad, but he didn’t follow the format for the type of paper the instructor wanted them to do.</p>
<p>So she said she had no choice but to flunk him.</p>
<p>I know he’s very upset right now and doesn’t want to talk to us.</p>
<p>I’m a writer by profession and I offered to go over his paper for him before he turned it in, but he wouldn’t let me. I would have spotted the format issue right away…or he could have taken it to the writing center at his campus, where they certainly would have pointed out that the format was not what the instructor assigned.</p>
<p>2conmama, part of our motivation in sending him to college was the same as yours…we needed to separate from him, and he DOES want to get an education, so that was what we came up with. We both had some reservations, but thought it was worth a shot.</p>
<p>He may still be able to save his grades with Cs at this point…maybe.</p>
<p>Very familiar @beachesgirl , as I am sure it is to @conmama. I am sorry. If there is any way to go with him to the OSD, the professor (obviously) did have a choice. Perhaps if your son is registered with the OSD, that will give her the “excuse” she needs to do the right thing. If you are like me, your next question will be “is that the parent swooping in to save the day?” No, it is not. It is aligning with the necessary help.</p>
<p>He’s not registered as having any disability right now, and we are not even sure he does, so he would be expected to meet the same requirements as any other student. I’ll have to get him to talk to me before we can discuss any of this and right now he’s so upset he doesn’t want to talk to us.</p>
<p>After my DS’s first semester at college he was on probation and we almost didn’t send him back. He begged us. One of the requirements was that he was going to have to “answer” to me throughout the spring term. For a “normal” kid of the same age of “normal” maturity, this would have been helicoptering…because those kids can see the consequences of their actions…down the road. These kids don’t really see it, they live for the moment. Well, he did answer to me…I made him draw up a schedule, I texted or spoke with him once a week…I knew when his tests were, etc. He ended up having to drop a class that semester, but the 3 remaining he ended up with a 3.0 and was out of probation. I haven’t done that since. Not that is what you would do, but you could try some variation about looking over some things like this. And believe it or not…the “smart” kids have their parents do it.</p>
<p>We have some family friends and all the kids seem to be brilliant (yes, one of THOSE families). You never resent them because the family and the kids are just all great people. The oldest daughter was in the top of her class, went to IU and was a biology major. 4.0. literally…never received anything less than an “A” her entire academic years. She sent her Dad, a doctor, her papers to review. So…the smart kids do it. I don’t consider it cheating if the kid does the paper, and has someone look over it and give suggestions. You should tell you son this. Good luck! Not all kids are receptive to it though…my isnt’.</p>
<p>conmama - So glad you were able to help your son turn things around. But just warning other parents that floundering students will often agree to accept help… but then start “hiding” (avoiding communication) when things are not going as well. If you go this route (which we once did, but with adhd organization coach), find a way up front to ensure they have buy-in. You may need to also specify what happens if the student falls back into independent wing-it mode. </p>
<p>I wouldn’t say it’s been a 180 degree turn just yet…maybe a 90 - 180! The difference is his maturity and that I think he finally cares about it all. It’s just that the execution sometimes can still be shaky. He’s doing well (for him) this semester in all classes except Accounting 202. He fluctuates between a C- and D+ right now. He gets all the homework and quizzes, but gets D’s on the tests. He says he’s finally going to tutors and group tutoring and say he really thinks he’s prepared for the test, then gets a D. I told him to go to the Professors office hours and even told him what to say to him. Does he? Probably not. I know it’s hard…but I took Acct 202 also and I think he could at least get a C. I just don’t think he’s telling me the truth on how much he’s studying or when. So we are back and forth, also. I do thinks it’s 3-6 years in becoming fully functioning and we are at 3 years.</p>
<p>I think the only reason my son had the “buy in” as you say, was the fear we were going to yank him out…which we almost did so we weren’t trying to call his bluff…we were serious. Plus, he was going to be kicked out if he had another semester on probation. That’s the thing with kids and executive dysfuction…they can never see their actions and long term consequences. They only kick it into gear when the immediate response (getting kicked out/yanked out) is in their present.</p>
<p>“I just found out he flunked his most recent English paper because he didn’t follow the format for the paper.”</p>
<p>Do you know why this happened? Did he forget/not write down the format? Or did he fail to understand the instructions? Or did he think his way of writing was better, so he was going to do it his way? There are lots of reasons that might lie behind this kind of problem.</p>
<p>“that will give her the “excuse” she needs to do the right thing.”</p>
<p>Wait, how do we know that the “right thing” is to give him a passing grade on a paper when he didn’t do what was asked of him?</p>
<p>@hannah, when she said she had no option but to flunk him, I feel like that was not accurate.</p>
<p>She could have required a conference, she could have asked him to re-take the test, she could have read the instructions orally, she could have asked for help from OSD on what to do. It may have been an input problem- not processing what he read on the paper. It could have been defiance.</p>
<p>What pedagogical purpose does it serve to assign an ‘F’ to an improperly formatted, well written paper? Certainly, she is within her rights to do so, but there is no educational value- it is punitive and assumes the action was on purpose.</p>
<p>That is an acceptable way to address this, but certainly not the only way, and I would claim not the right way. Giving a punitive grade only works if there is a feedback loop; if the action was careless or purposeful. I doubt it was either.</p>
<p>I don’t see grades as having an educational or punitive purpose. They have an evaluative purpose. I don’t believe they are supposed to convey lessons. The course content is supposed to convey lessons. Grades are supposed to measure the extent to which a student met the instructor’s expectations. This instructor felt that the student failed to meet expectations on a fundamental level. If the instructor says “Write a sonnet,” and the student turns in brilliant free verse, what do you think should happen? You say an F has no educational value, but is there educational value in giving that student an A? What if he turns in some brilliantly solved chemistry problems instead of a poem?</p>
<p>Now, if “format” here means 12 point font with 1-inch margins, then the instructor is a fool. But in the context of a college English course, when I hear “he didn’t follow the format for the type of paper the instructor wanted them to do,” I think that means an instruction like, “Take a quote from the text and write 1000 words with no less than three arguments.” Maybe the OP can clarify.</p>
<p>“she could have asked for help from OSD on what to do”</p>
<p>But why? A student screwed up a paper. There are a million different reasons why that might have happened. She has no reason to think the student has a disability. Should she be checking with OSD before giving a low grade to any student on any assignment? If a student is brilliant in class and then turns in a mess of a paper, maybe that’s a red flag that something weird is going on, and she should ask the student about it. But no one’s said anything like that about this student.</p>
<p>I’m all for disability services, but adults need to access them if they want the benefits. IMHO, it’s not a professor’s job to get a 19-year-old to take his medicine.</p>
<p>@Hanna, we come from different world-views, probably colored by different personal experiences in our life paths. Grades that evaluate form over function are of questionable worth. In other words, if the functional ability is there, but the format is wrong, there is a disconnect. It did seem to me that the format issue had to do with font, margins, etc., but either way there is clearly a disconnect that needs to be understood.</p>
<p>Professors, like it or not, are on the front lines to identify that disconnect. It is easy to say it is not their job, and just move on down the line. If no one engages, then the student falls through the cracks. If the student is not capable of properly self-advocating, or if he does not see the disconnect, he would not access the services. It would be like putting a wheelchair at the top of a flight of steps and saying that if the paraplegic cannot get in the wheelchair, it is his problem; the wheelchair has been provided, and he is an adult! Never mind that the flight of steps may be insurmountable.</p>
<p>This is a young man who is crushed and is developing an identity, notwithstanding his high capabilities, as a low-performer. This cognitive disconnect is really not healthy, and it would be helpful for someone to see it and intervene.</p>
<p>I pointed out that the professor told the OP that she had no options, as if she felt she wanted to do something else but was prevented from doing so. I also pointed out that she in fact did have options. Having been identified by OSD would have signaled to the professor to consider other options. I called considering doing one of these options “doing the right thing.” I then gave some examples of the options.</p>
<p>How common is it for a student to turn in a well-written piece, and for it not to be in the correct format, in the sense of an instruction like, “Take a quote from the text and write 1000 words with no less than three arguments.”?</p>
<p>Is it actually not uncommon, or is it?</p>
<p>This is independent of this thread, I am interested.</p>
<p>@ItsJustSchool it’s INCREDIBLY common. You have no idea how many people don’t bother to read through the directions of what they’re supposed to do.</p>
<p>I wonder how far “not following the format” was. A 1000 word essay turned in for a 500 word essay, zero. A comparison of two different political systems when three were asked to be compared, zero. A great essay on WW II when an essay on WW I was asked for, zero.</p>
<p>I don’t think most people get how many students try to pull a fast one in order to get more time for an assignment. Because of this, students who truly have an issue but are not registered with disability services at the university will not get the benefit of the doubt.</p>
<p>I am one of the FEW professors I know of who will ask a student who reaches out to me if they might have a LD or another reason they cannot finish homework or exams on time. Most just give the bad grade if the student is not registered as such.</p>
<p>If “format” means MLA format or some other kind of citation apparatus, and the paper lacked it, I can see failing it. A main purpose of first-year comp classes is to teach students how to write academic papers that correctly incorporate research sources using an approved citation format (MLA, Chicago, whatever). A paper with no citations, endnotes, list of works cited, etc. would not meet the goals of the assignment and hence does not qualify as a “well-written” paper in that context. </p>
<p>I think points should be taken off proportionally ( while honoring the quality of the paper and hard work that went into it).If the teacher had already given warnings before, then the F is justified. Otherwise, the actions of the teacher seem rigid and perhaps reflect personal frustration, even anger, which is not appropriate. Good teachers want students to learn but also like to see them succeed. I wonder if a dean or someone else from the school could mediate.</p>