2 D's and academic probation, any ideas ??

Parents Forum
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<p>@conmama I never did have him tested for any learning disability because he has always been a good academic performer.</p>

<p>BTW @myos1634 presents a tremendously sensible plan for holding a college kid accountable when away from home. I think its a great plan.and I appreciate your time and effort, but I sadly agree with blossom that actions in my S’s case clearly speak louder than words. He should have and probably did know he was in trouble but chose to mislead and ignore rather than to camp at the prof’s office. By choosing to have fun over attending to academic concerns he portrays his values. Maybe he can show us his commitment in a year of challenging classes at Cleveland State retaking both O Chems and assorted classes that could benefit him moving forward.</p>

<p>Any downside to continuing at home for a year ?.</p>

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<p>Your son needs a meeting with his advisor and the academic dean ASAP. I have no idea if there’s a downside to attending classes at Cleveland State, but you need to figure out if that’s a viable plan if the goal is to return to his original program. Maybe the credits will transfer; maybe the won’t; perhaps if your son is enrolled for credit elsewhere he is de facto “withdrawn” from his program and needs to re-apply down the road. Maybe his transcript will show that he’s fulfilled the requirements elsewhere and therefore the registrar will remove the D grades (just showing a W for withdrawn and then the credits showing up as transfer credit) or maybe they won’t.</p>

<p>His original institution needs to sign off on the plan so the meeting your son seems to have been avoiding with the Dean is going to be inevitable…</p>

<p>And for the record, I don’t think your son is demonstrating his values as you put it. To me, he’s a kid in late adolescence acting out because he’s studying pharmacy in order to become a pharmacist, and at age 20 he’s learned that pharmacy is hard, boring, time-consuming (fill in the blanks) and he doesn’t want to be doing it anymore. But since figuring out Plan B is also hard and boring and time-consuming, he’s waiting to get chucked out rather than be proactive and come up with his own plan. If his close buddies are in the same program, he doesn’t want to “lose” their friendship once he’s left the camaraderie of their shared misery. </p>

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<p>It is easy to say pull him out and do a BK year, but not as easy to do and not always effective. In this case, as many have said, needs to face the hard reality that pharmacy may not be the path for him. If next year’s coursework is even harder, what will he do to ensure that he can actually pass those classes with acceptable grades? If the courses are even tougher than Organic and microbio, he is going to have to fundamentally change to actually do well. Otherwise, a change in major may be in order, but it can be really hard for a kid to do that (esp after sophomore year). </p>

<p>I would have him talk to a counselor of some sort this summer and, if you can, have him tell you honestly and openly what the issues are: Is it motivation? Is it study skills? Was it just too hard? Or was it too much partying? If the last, it is probably the easiest to fix (assuming no addiction issues). He can move into a different dorm or quit the frat and move on from there. If it is one of the others, he has to really examine what he wants to do and major in. No point in continuing down the same path without some fundamental change. But it can be very hard for a 20yo kid to articulate the actual issues. Talking to his adviser may be tough because the advisor is probably off for the summer at this point. </p>

<p>The year at home taking local classes definitely works for some kids. The motivation of not being at school and living at home can work wonders. Others, however, are so resentful that they may act out more - partying opportunities are certainly still there. What would you do if he continues on that path? Others may decide living at home is not the answer and move out altogether to a low level job. </p>

<p>Even if he does well at State, if he doesn’t change his ways he could fall back to the same pattern when he goes back to the school he is currently attending. If Cleveland state is really easy, it may not force him to change his study habits. </p>

<p>I would guess he had good grades and scores from high school to get into the 6-year program. It seems like this is more motivational or situational (partying) than ability. Some really smart kids are able to get by in HS without working and honestly don’t know how to do it once they get to harder classes. </p>

<p>It is so hard to balance acceptance of who a kid is with tough love needed to get them motivated. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Blossom maybe we can agree to this; he likes the idea of being a pharmacist better than the reality and rigor of becoming one.</p>

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<p>The reality of pharmacy is that it doesn’t get easier–pharmaceutics, pharmacology, physics, labs, more chemistry til it feels like it’s coming out your ears. It’s not limited to organic and micro-biology. They are hard courses and not everybody can get through them. Like Blossom said–students who want it WORK at it. They have to. It isn’t easy for anybody.</p>

<p>Another reality is that in a set program like pharmacy the courses run sequentially and are not necessarily offered every semester. Check with the program. You can get off track very quickly and may have to wait a year before the course you need prior taking the next is even offered again. Failing classes that can’t be immediately remedied can throw you out of the entire program.</p>

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<p>@gouf78 absolutely true, Bio Chem is the next killer class. I do not know how he can do well in that without mastery of O chem 1 and 2. I know his program does allow for a year off I am not sure of the conditions…Replacing the C and D from O chem 1 and 2 with A or B regardless of which university you take it at would make me feel better for sure. I also know the O chem from CSU would transfer. </p>

<p>One question gouf, what would be your take away if your kid did this poorly but still chose to go on a lil fishing trip rather than wait till finals grades are in. </p>

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<p>Singers- the O Chem from CSU will transfer (as in, your son will have fulfilled the requirement for his current program for O Chem) does not mean that getting a B from CSU in O chem replaces the D that is currently on his transcript. Every university handles this differently- your son can get credit without that better grade showing up. In other words- he’s passed O Chem, but didn’t get anything beyond a P as far as his current university is concerned.</p>

<p>Nonetheless, sounds like a hard conversation with some of the adults at his current U is next up on the agenda.</p>

<p>Big hug to you OP. I don’t know what the answer is, but for sure your son now knows what it will take for him to be a successful student (whether at current college or elsewhere.) If/When he’s ready to do that- for sure he will have options. My inclination would be to start exploring those options now, before the money and the aid and the goodwill has run out on him. You ALWAYS have better options when you opt out (i.e. tell your Dean you want to take a year off to explore non-pharmacy options) vs. getting counseled out (i.e the Dean sending a three line email to say that since you didn’t make satisfactory academic progress you are being dismissed or are on academic probation.) Better to take the bull by the horns now before another weak semester puts your son behind the 8 ball.</p>

<p>What is it exactly about “being” a pharmacist that appealed to your son? Maybe that’s the place to start. Helping people? A science profession that seemed like less science than engineering or medicine? working in a hospital setting? </p>

<p>Did he ever explore any of the other allied health professions- nutritional counseling? physical therapy?</p>

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<p>Ugh…I lost my post. I will keep this quick. I think he knows he did poorly and is just wanting to get away from it all. He’s not quite “there” yet to handle these bad challenges. I agree with you that it seems he likes the thought of being a pharmacist more than he wants to actually be one. Have you had a heart to heart with him about any of this yet? </p>

<p>Also, has he ever had career counseling? If you don’t want to go that route, there is a wonderful book that is fun to read and take the career counseling tests…it’s spot on. It’s called “Do What You Are”. It’s based on the Myers-Brigg tests. Although it’s a big book, only half of it needs to be read. You take the test, and then read about your type. I just got mine at the library…it was fun to take, too. Gives tons of suggestions as to what you’d be good at (and even not).</p>

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<p>He has always loved science Blossom, the first at his HS to take 2 honors level science classes in one year. He also loves helping people. his mom is an RN / director of nursing older sister is an occupational therapist. So maybe, health care runs in the blood ? bad joke, sorry. He really feels that with the expanding role of pharmacists he could be on the forefront of making a difference in peoples lives. He has also talked about minoring in chem and possible specializing in radiologic pharmacy. He truly does not “sound” like a kid following a whim…But as you said he isn’t acting like a student determined to succeed.</p>

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<p>I would let the fishing trip go as knowing there was nothing he could do at the point (I doubt any Orgo profs will allow a student to do extra credit after the final) to improve his grade. He probably knows tht he facing some hard choices. He may really want to be a pharmacist and love science. Organic chemistry is known as a weed-out class for pre-meds for good reason. It is really hard and requires a lot of memorization. Not sure this means he doesn’t want to be a pharmacist, just that he didn’t put in the effort for these classes. </p>

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<p>@conmama we have had heart to hearts with him at the end of last year and after the first semester this year.We were disappointed in his grades not because they were so bad but because we knew he could do better and we felt like Blossom feels, that maybe he just bit off more than HE WANTS to chew. So we gave him the out, maybe consider a less challenging major etc. He is brighter than me, Mom, or Sister 1, yet there is a disconnect somewhere between his ability and performance. Whether that is immaturity, lack of commitment, laziness I just don’t know. Mom and Sis both managed to pass O-chem with B’s or better through hard work and perseverance. </p>

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<p>He can become a writer for a pharmaceutical company and use his love of science to make hard concepts easier to understand for non-technical people. He can become a marketing guru for a health insurance company. He can become a finance person who works with life science start-ups in getting them access to capital. He can become director of education for a natural history or science museum. He can work in product development for a textbook company which creates innovative science curricula. He can become a program manager for a charitable foundation (think Pew or Gates) which invests in disease eradication strategies in the developing world.</p>

<p>There are dozens of fine careers for someone who “loves science”. Loving science seems to me to be insufficient reason to stick with a direct admit/accelerated pharmacy program especially if the 6 year program is now looking like a 7+ year program. And not because the extra year is being devoted to additional exploration of virology or biostatistics or materials science… but devoted to a redo of the basic requirements.</p>

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<p>All good ideas, I will pass them along Blossom, thank you.</p>

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<p>OP, just wanted to let you know we have been here. We sent S1 off with trepidation and things went from okay to bad to even worse, and I don’t mean purely based on a gpa. We collectively made the decision to withdraw, get some help and take a breather, re-assess majors through the view of “what is attainable” and continue to support our son with positivity and the notion that we are a team, and he is not to be punished or shamed or made to feel less because of his academic abilities. The gulf between his intentions and his execution was profound. </p>

<p>People will tell you “let him fail” or that it’s your fault for enabling, he’s immature, he’s reckless, he is lazy…or a million things. None of that is relevant to your particular student. Do what you must to bolster his confidence, hedge against his inabilities. Do not ascribe to “shoulds” and “have tos” and artificial timelines. Do find things he can be successful in , do encourage him to go slowly, do plan for things to go wrong, often. Do embrace the notion that life takes many paths and sometimes the best outcomes are on paths we never planned for. </p>

<p>My son graduated from college against all possible odds, and is working in a job in his field that he loves (because he’s very good at what he does. Stinks at organization, etc.— ) People told me this was possible, and I did not for one minute believe them. But shows what I know! Hang on! Hang. on.</p>

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<p>“He is brighter than me, Mom, or Sister 1, yet there is a disconnect somewhere between his ability and performance. Whether that is immaturity, lack of commitment, laziness I just don’t know.” </p>

<p>Dh and I were just having this conversation last night. DH said the same thing. Basically it’s so frustrating because I don’t know if it’s laziness or truly he’s not as bright as we thought he was, or just doesn’t seem to have a passion? What is it? How can we help him? It is the most frustrating feeling for a parent. We did have him tested as sophomore in H.S. Had is IQ tested, too. He’s not gifted, but in the average range…although in the high end of average and his processing speed was above the average range. So, he has the ability, but doesn’t put forth the effort.</p>

<p>Mine is going into business because he really doesn’t know what else to do. That troubles me. He has put in no effort to try to figure out what he wants to do…maybe your son will use some of the suggestions Blossom has given. I can relate so much to everything you are saying. It’s hard to try to figure out what to do because there doesn’t seem to be too many parents around who have kids like this to give hands on advice as to what worked in the end.</p>

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<p>OP- I’m confused. Doesn’t he need to at least get a C in O Chem 2 to move on the Bio Chem?</p>

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<p>Absolutely right @michiganGeorgia. by retaking o 1 and o 2 neither of which he did well in, he will be in a better position to take bio chem</p>

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<p>Con- my best advice is to find something to love that will love you back.</p>

<p>So many kids get shoehorned into disciplines and majors and then careers in which they have only moderate interest- or really aren’t very good at- and then what the parents see (and their bosses see down the road) is indifferent effort leading to indifferent performance.</p>

<p>People- get your kids out of their own four walls. There are HUNDREDS of careers that your kids have never heard of. Folks here scoff at me when I tell parents of HS kids to ditch the SAT tutors and just take their kids to the library, subscribe to the New Yorker and the Economist and the Wall Street Journal and Vanity Fair or Atlantic. I counsel kids in my own community all the time and it boggles the mind how provincial many of them are about career options. READ. The world isn’t divided into the doctors and the dentists and the HS teachers and the firefighters and the police officers. That’s the world when you are in first grade and your teacher has “career day”.</p>

<p>There is nothing wrong with “going into business” but what the heck does that even mean? A forensic accountant isn’t even remotely similar to a marketing manager, which isn’t even remotely similar to a risk analyst which shares nothing in common with a logistics manager. Someone who trades currency futures has completely different personality traits and training from someone who works with cities on economic development strategies and a completely different personality and training from someone who figures out the best way to get a truckload of ice cream from the factory to the store without it melting into a pile of goo.</p>

<p>The best career advice is to read and read and read until you find something so exciting and compelling that you’d do it for free. Back when I was young and stupid I sat next to an accountant on an airplane and must have said something like “oh gee that sounds boring.” At the time he was working on the task force to identify Imelda Marcos’ assets which were stashed around the globe, in order to compensate the innocent victims of the corrupt regime. He told me about his colleague who worked with Interpol and various law enforcement agencies on art theft, and his colleague who was an expert on the real estate owned by former SS officers who had “disappeared” after WW2 without ever standing trial for crimes against humanity.</p>

<p>I’ve never looked at accounting the same way.</p>

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<p>@greenbutton fantastic quote here from you “The gulf between his intentions and his execution was profound”</p>

<p>I get the “lens of the attainable” and will add that to my approach, sounds better then “do something you won’t mess up” to me</p>

<p>Aside from a team approach, patience,and unwavering support (which are all admirable) did you do anything that was particularly effective ?</p>

<p>Did you monitor him more closely when he went back to school. ?</p>

<p>Did you have him change universities ?</p>

<p>Thank you for the post and I am so glad things have worked out and you and your Son didn’t give up.</p>

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<p>Was it possible his course schedule was not well-planned or better yet “GPA protected?” Sometimes, and not trying to find an out just an explanation, the course schedule is not well thought out and isn’t done “smartly.” A tough prof known for a killer weed-out course of ochem with def eq, physics for engineers and an intensive writing course might not provide the high GPA pharmD and pre-meds are seeking.</p>

<p>And you are right, the biochem, immunology, physical chem, cell bio, genetics and other upper division and grad school courses are going to get much harder. Son was pre-med and ended up with a biochem AND microbio and genetics degree which in his experience was much easier then his calc-based econ degree. The difference was as others have mentioned was the memorization that went into the o-chem, chem and bio vs. the understanding and mastery of economic and applied mathematics theories.</p>

<p>Son did the memorization route first but realized he was doing himself no favors because if he truly wanted to move beyond those concepts he truly needed to KNOW why, how, when all the concepts of o-chem, micro, genetics…it was more difficult at first, but after mastering the knowledge the following classes/concepts became so much easier. He still maintains that his econ courses were so much more difficult.</p>

<p>He has put all to good use as he is finishing up his last years in his MD/MBA program. As far as a “good-time Charlie” son had other interests in undergrad beyond studying. He was a D1 athlete, with a busy social life. The courses are hard for a reason, the material is difficult. I like the others would ask him if he truly thinks he is capable of mastering the material and why he received sub-par grades. No need for punishment, it is a journey and he needs help identifying what he can and cannot do, for whatever reason.</p>

<p>The gift of time is so important. Has he taken any other electives/courses other than his pharmD stuff? I too, like blossom believe there are so many different paths in life and undergrad is the time to discover those possible paths. What are your son’s passions? I have 5 kiddos and all are so very different, but they each have such passions that they have naturally followed those paths and enjoy what they do and who they are. College for them was the opportunity to reach beyond their dreams and discover so many other opportunities.</p>

<p>Is it possible for your son to take the year off with a formal request to the school without losing his place and keeping his financial aid package?</p>

<p>And I don’t mean for him to sit on your coach and play video games.</p>

<p>But to try and figure out what really interests him. He likes science…does he like engineering, math? What kind of science? Does he like research? Nursing, insurance, policy-making in health-care, reviewing tech manuals…the list is endless. At 18 he was supposed to KNOW he wanted to be a pharmacist, that is not something I expected of any of my kiddos.</p>

<p>Time. Sounds like he needs time, not to be punished but to get on track of something he loves.</p>

<p>He doesn’t need to be pushed, but he does need to want it for if not you are just wasting your money and his time.</p>

<p>My neighbor loved bio but it was difficult for her, she ended up in park management. She is now a US Park Ranger and a wildfire fighter. jumps from planes. Her hubby failed accounting, tried EMS and struggled. He is now a Navy SEAL. Sister majored in anthro and she is a museum curator. Son’s GF also majored in anthro and she is the contract negotiator for a Broadway playwright firm in NYC. </p>

<p>You sent him to school to learn and become educated. Give him the time to figure it out.</p>

<p>Kat</p>