<p>I am having trouble following all of your various threads which seem to contain information saying different things about your status.</p>
<p>On another thread you recently wrote:</p>
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I already have a file on the candidate log in... but other than that Im lost......
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<p>Now you say:</p>
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I would rather use the psats to insure that I get a (candidate) number....
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<p>What am I missing here?</p>
<p>And you have posted that your currently live in Virginia as well as California?????</p>
<p>Regarding the Ivies - I think the HYPSMs are subject to an awful lot of reverse snobbery. They send out so many rejections (Harvard took only 1650 or so of 23,000 applicants, Stanford had a staggering 24,000 applicants) that it's inevitable that there will be a backlash, I suppose.</p>
<p>HYPSM admits are usually in the top 5% of their classes. There are very few admits at these colleges who are even in the lower top 10%. </p>
<p>I saw a statistic re the class of 2011 at USNA that indicated that there is a sizable number of admits who are in the 2nd, 3rd and even 4th deciles. In addition, there are no specifically tailored post high school prep programs for the HYPSMs. The vast majority of HYPSM admits come straight from high school.</p>
<p>I can't envision that MIT, Harvard, Yale or Stanford would admit a student into their engineering programs who would have difficulty with basic calculus, chemistry or physics.</p>
<p>In addition, the academies admit mostly American born students. The applicants for HYPSMs must compete globally.</p>
<p>The service academies have their strengths...that's great for our country but it's really not feasible to propose that most academy admits could easily gain entrance to HYPSM.</p>
<p>It's better to appreciate the service academies for what they do well rather than view them through rose colored glasses.</p>
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"how does admission to a service academy like usma and usna compare with difficult/ivy league level universities like duke and columbia?"</p>
<p>I look at it like this:</p>
<p>Take the average Cadet/Mid and ask yourself, could they survive to graduate from Columbia/Duke/Harvard, etc....?</p>
<p>Then take your average Ivy Leager and ask yourself, could they survive to graduate from Annapolis or West Point?</p>
<p>Hmmmmm......
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<p>One can not make a comparison between admits to the Ivies and Academies. The applicant pools are completely different. You may get a crossover between those who apply to the Academies and also to the Ivies, but there will not be much of a crossover between those applying between the Ivies and then to an Academy. Just plain different type of kids.</p>
<p>As for average mids/cadets surviving graduating from the Ivies - probably not any better than the average Ivy Kid surviving to graduate from the Academy. Lets face it the graduation rate for the academies does not even come close to the graduation rate of 95%+ for the Ivies. </p>
<p>You just can not compare applicants to the two different types of institutions - neither are any "better" than the other, they are just very different. Apples vs Oranges</p>
<p>I can only speak to Harvard and Duke. They required strong academics, essay, strong recommendations, ec's and money.</p>
<p>The Naval Academy required strong academics, essay, strong recommendations, candidate fitness assessment, nomination, DoDMERB exam, athletics and ec's.</p>
<p>I dare say that 95% of the student body that I saw at both Harvard and Duke would not, not that they would want to, survive plebe summer. So I agree.. apples and oranges.</p>
<p>Annually, there are usually slightly less than 100 that apply to and are accepted by both USNA and one of the Ivies. Historically around 80% of these candidates choose USNA. MIT and Stanford are usually the only exceptions nationwide.</p>
<p>I saw a lot of fat kids when we visited Harvard, Tale, and Penn. Doubtful that even 20% of their incoming class could pass a fitness test.</p>
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They send out so many rejections (Harvard took only 1650 or so of 23,000 applicants, Stanford had a staggering 24,000 applicants)
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<p>Since we are going to continue to beat this very dead horse I'd just like to point out the competition among these many of these colleges for top ranking positions is fierce and as you might imagine any factor that is included in the calculations that can be "tweaked" will be. I have absolutely no faith in the integrity of the published "applicants" data. Countless kids have been surprised to find out the "applied to that college" by filling out a questionnaire at a college fair. </p>
<p>In the end it takes a very talented kid to get into any of these schools, the one distinction that means something to me has everything to do with why they go to the college of their choice and not the where.</p>
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usually slightly less than 100 that apply to and are accepted by both USNA and one of the Ivies.
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<p>I am curious how you would even know that statistic as my son was never asked by USNA where else he had applied nor where he was accepted. He made a decision at the beginning of the application process that he did not divulge that information to any school who asked. I seriously doubt that Stanford or the other 6 schools he was accepted to let USNA know that they lost the candidate to USNA since they would have had no way of knowing either. This practice was standard at our high school although many did divulge their acceptance on the form that was sent to the schools that they were declining.</p>
<p>rjrzoom is correct on the applied to when they in fact never did. Know of one kid who was "wait listed" at a school that he did not ever finish their application nor ever had his school transcripts sent to. This is also a school that is considered one of the top LAC's. (little Ivies if you will)</p>
<p>Apples to Oranges really a non-topic.</p>
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PSAT's "count" as an admissions consideration when a student applies for Summer Seminar (NASS). </p>
<p>Not so sure it is a good idea to forget about PSAT's.
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<p>sorry to come back to this so late....</p>
<p>PSAT's, as far as I understand them, are taken up through the fall of Junior year.... after that, they are replaced by SAT scores. Other than for merrit scholarships, and NASS considerations, they lose their significance once one becomes eligable to take the SATs.</p>
<p>And while it is true the PSAT scores will be used to screen for early candidates and "invites" to NASS, the offer of appointment will be based on SAT (ACT) scores and not PSATs.</p>
<p>Just to keep things in perspective-
the goal, IMO, should not be on "getting an invite to NASS".... but rather "getting an appointment to the USNA," keeping in mind that not all who attend NASS will gain appointments, just as many appointments will be offered to candidates that never attended NASS.</p>
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[quote]
Take the average Cadet/Mid and ask yourself, could they survive to graduate from Columbia/Duke/Harvard, etc....?</p>
<p>Then take your average Ivy Leager and ask yourself, could they survive to graduate from Annapolis or West Point?
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<p>I guess how I look at this is would the AVERAGE person have even WANTED to go there..........probably not......so why bother comparing ?????</p>
<p>Okay, everyone who wants to talk about Ivies vs the Academies, please exit the door to the right.</p>
<p>Anyone who wants to talk about whether or not it is acceptable to post PSATS in the preliminary application because they happen to be a bit higher than the initial SAT scores, please exit the door to the left. This could be an interesting discussion since Mr Sinister might explain what he means by "curving" his PSAT score.</p>
<p>All who want to attempt to find out what the true SAT requirement is for official candidacy, please stay seated. However, at least three times in the above posts, it has been correctly stated as 570M/530V.</p>
<p>Maybe I'm mistaken but I thought the original poster asked a follow up question regarding Ivies and SAs.</p>
<p>HYPMSs indeed do not offer "Extra Instruction." After thinking about the concept it seems to be a dubious asset. Students at the HYPMSs manage to get through tough classes without much professorial hand holding.</p>
<p>Many of HYPMS students engage in exceptionally committed schedules that include highly competItive classes, research, ec's and yes - even Division I and intramural sports. </p>
<p>Can the entire student bodies of the SAs do pull ups? I could be wrong here as well but I have a heard of an option called the flexed arm hang for those unable to do pull ups.</p>
<p>And finally, it would be interesting to know how many of the 12,000 applicants who open SA admission files actually see them through to completion.</p>
<p>Okay I did the preapp. Will they email me if I qualify? They told me that they were going to mail my candidate number, but that's sure going to take awhile since I live all the way across the world. I got my dodmerb packet like 2 weeks after stateside kids did.</p>
<p>^^^^ step one completed.
Now have a bit of patience for step 2.</p>
<p>Providing you meet the minimum SAT (as posted by USNA69 and Bill, our newest BGO)- you will recieve notification by mail- including your candidate number and additional paperwork and items to complete. This may take a few weeks, so hang tight. Suggest working on the other parts of your application in the meantime (personal essay)- and hitting those SAT review books.</p>
<p>The good news is that the DoDMERB exam that you took (if I am reading your posts correctly) for USMA can also be used for USNA- you will not have to do anything else in that regard (USNA will contact DoDMERB).</p>
<p>Don't worry about living all the way across the world- it's a small planet, and if they want you- you can bet they will find you.</p>
<p>How hurry up and wait- you will be in good company.
Key, however, is to use your time wisely!</p>
<p>(usna69- is that a bit of humor i am seeing? or is my vision going? ;) )</p>
<p>The Naval Academy does ask what other institutions you were accepted to on its application. I remember filling this part out on the application. I bet that statistic is fairly accurate, although I know 3 midshipmen in my own company who are attending USNA in favor of an Ivy League school (or same type MIT, Duke, Stanford, etc.)</p>
<p>I'd like to get this idea to exit stage left with a resounding arguement.</p>
<p>Shiloh mentioned that Extra Instruction detracted from the USNA's academic reputation. I know a Rhodes Scholar who practically lived in the EI classrooms as an underclass midshipman. If a Rhodes Scholar is in need of extra help you can bet that most of the Brigade would probably benefit from it. We have busy schedules. I'm not ashamed one bit to tell people that I went to EI more times than I could count as a plebe.</p>
<p>Let me tell you that those 12,000 candidates for the SA's are legitimate. This is what the thread is about. We can be sure that there are many not even receiving the candidate packet each year. All of those 12,000 had at least a 530V/570M to even compete for an appointment. This fact is indisputable. The only disputable fact is how many of those 23,000 applicants to Harvard are legitimate?</p>
<p>You'll find in our class profile that about 30% of the class of 2010 had a verbal SAT score of under 600. This can best be attributed to NAPS or prior enlisted. The service academies are still very viable options and very sought after by top high school applicants. I turned down Princeton and Dartmouth. The Naval Academy has BETTER engineering programs than either of these schools and a professional program better than any. I'm still a very academic person. So to me, I was somewhere between an apple and an orange, probably a peach. The Academy has taken it's toll on me the first year. I ranked 97 academically and 656 physically. Of course my overall rank is hurt by the physical demands of the institution, a penalty I'll gladly take if it makes me realize how important it is to be in good physical condition as an officer.</p>
<p>I urge you to take a look at MIT's class of 2011 admissions statistics posted below
<a href="http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/admissions_statistics/index.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/admissions_statistics/index.shtml</a></p>
<p>Here you'll find that a fair share of applicants were taken from all different tiers of SAT scores and class rankings. A few even scored below 600 in the math section. As in most college institutions, you'll see that most of the selective ones have only the best to choose from. MIT did however leave a few of the elite by the wayside in favor for a few stragglers/huge reach candidates.</p>
<p>In all, the Academies are professional institutions first and foremost. Conversely, to say that the average midshipman could not survive the "elite" college climate is absurd. Most midshipman/cadets are not even concerned about the hype at the other top schools because we are focused on becoming professionals first. If that means throwing hard academic work in our faces, then we'll take that too if it helps us become better officers.</p>
<p>2010 ... you're funny albeit delusional perhaps. ;):cool:</p>
<p>Of course there's no conclusive answer. I'll simply return to my original premise that were I a betting person, I'd bet my little bungalow on ...</p>
<p>Way more kids who are appointed to a SA could gain admission to an Ivy than the number of Ivy attenders could gain an SA appointment. :)</p>
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HYPMSs indeed do not offer "Extra Instruction." After thinking about the concept it seems to be a dubious asset. Students at the HYPMSs manage to get through tough classes without much professorial hand holding.
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</p>
<p>As hard as I am trying not to get sucked back in to this thread after reading Shiloh's post ^^^ I just couldn't sit there. "Dubious asset"??? What could you possibly be thinking in making such a comment? College is about education; to be more specific getting one that matters as well as coming away with a sufficient depth of understanding of a subject so you may use it and build upon it. “Getting through" tough classes does not qualify as an achievement, even when those classes you "get through" happen to be at an Ivy. I did just that as a student, I had a professor from hell in Thermo I, our class test averages were typically around a 30. I got through it with a D, as did most of the class. Did I get a D because I was a “marginal student” that shouldn’t have been there in the first place; I’ll leave that for you to decide, I took SATs once and came in with a 750 math SAT, a 760 physics SAT and a 750 math level II SAT. My problem as well as the problem of many of my peers was a lack of study skills, something we never developed in high school. Extra instruction would have been a god send to us; not just in terms of our grades but in terms of our understanding of the subject material so that we could build upon it and not struggle when we moved on to Thermo II.
When it comes to education at any level, what matters is what you come away with and the extent that your education in those tough classes was really a learning experience or an exercise in survival. The other distinction that you are ignoring or just plain missing in your post is the fact that a comprehensive education at a SA occurs in just 4 years. Even with that SAs like the Naval Academy graduate close to 85% of their incoming class. If that wasn’t a spectacular achievement in it’s own right, consider the fact that a major component of the students lost during those four years leave for reasons other than academics; Plebe summer, physical, honor violations etc. If you looked at just the academic side, the real number is likely to be above 90%. How many parent of Ivy students would like to know going in to their sons/daughters education commitment, that they have a 90% chance of gradating in 4 years? There are no colleges outside the academies that, at the end of the day, really seem to care one way or another whether or not you son/daughter makes it through to the end; if it takes 5 or 6 years all the, better, because after all that's another $50-100k in their pockets.
Having extra instruction as a resource at the SA's is a tremendous asset, one that colleges across the country would do well to emulate and does not in any way diminish the quality or perception of that education. Quite the opposite is true.</p>
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<p>Pretty astute if you ask me.</p>
<p>You bet she is. </p>
<p>Good seeing you back on the CC forum, 69er. It really helps having your informed presence in the discussion. :cool: ;)</p>