<p>^ I agree with you about the car thing, but it’s important to my husband, and he has worked very hard to get where he is, and continues to do so. Besides Duke, it is our only extravagance. We are different, but value each others perspective. We DID agree to lease a less expensive car!</p>
<p>“You and your H think it would be worth the sacrifice if your D were majoring in science and was at the top of the class, but you resent having to sacrifice if she isn’t.”</p>
<p>Resent is strong but yes, we would feel better about it."</p>
<p>your goalposts are changing. You sent her off with the expectation that she would do well enough to avoid academic probation and that she would contribute $3500. But now you’re saying, well, you really expected her to be at the top of the class and you’d feel better if she were majoring in science. </p>
<p>It’s very unfortunate that the money for sib is gone but that has ZERO to do with d’s work ethic, grades or major.</p>
<p>“But now you’re saying, well, you really expected her to be at the top of the class and you’d feel better if she were majoring in science.”</p>
<p>Are you responding to my request for a quote to support your impressions? You quoted somebody else, and my response to them, and came to the conclusion that I expected her to be at the top of leer class… That’s not fair! Wow… guess that’s “journalism” ( by the way, I also found a great certificate in Journalism program at Duke that D is very excited about… I know… I should have let HER find it…).</p>
<p>“It’s very unfortunate that the money for sib is gone but that has ZERO to do with d’s work ethic, grades or major”</p>
<p>The struggle here is, the money is only “gone” after we budget for two more years at Duke. We could probably find a way to finance a public for him with current income. I could get another job. He has really not demonstrated a lot of interest in rigor. Trying to learn from experience and trying to figure out how much to invest…</p>
<p>I think the advice to attend all classes is good. I sat down and figured out, by class, what we were paying for Ds tuition what each class is costing and told her.</p>
<p>I remember that. I mentioned it to my D at the time.</p>
<p>I empathize with the concerns of OP and her husband. </p>
<p>We fall in the practical range when it comes to colleges and majors. My husband and I make enough money that a $50,000 per year college is doable without loans, but not without some sacrifice. I have no problem telling my children that we will pay for a $50K top-25 school math major, but not a $40K average-school sports management major. And for a less expensive state school, they can do (pretty much) as they will but we make sure their eyes will be wide-open regarding career and salary prospects in their major. </p>
<p>Some people are exceptionally good and/or exceptionally lucky, but most of us are going to be constrained in our options with certain majors. And that is even more true if the college GPA isn’t up to snuff. </p>
<p>Also, I think some of the experiences that we parents went through years ago are not very relevant anymore. The competition for grad school, professorships, and jobs is tougher now. It brings to mind the admission competition for the Ivies – obviously some people get in, but do you want to just hope that you are going be in the lucky 10% or do want to make a realistic plan that you’ll be in the unlucky 90%?</p>
<p>Been lurking on this very interested thread.</p>
<p>shrinkrap, there is what is explicitly said, and there’s what’s implied. People are reacting to what your words aren’t saying, but how they could be interpreted by a young adult.</p>
<p>But I just can’t let pass that you are putting all your dollars and, it seems, all your hopes on your dd. I can see why you are wound up about this. In this story I think I feel most for the little brother, who “has really not demonstrated a lot of interest in rigor” and so might get a public u, if he’s lucky. Again, you aren’t saying explicitly that he’s a disappointment and therefore not as deserving as your dd, but that’s how it comes across.</p>
<p>( by the way, I also found a great certificate in Journalism program at Duke that D is very excited about… I know… I should have let HER find it…).</p>
<p>I disagree about should have let HER find programs and opportunities. We all discover new things by reading, researching, random conversations, overheard conversations, etc. and we pass them on in conversations with family, friends and co-workers.</p>
<p>I happen to get parent e-mails from my kids’ colleges. I forward the items I think my kid might find interesting. Sometimes an engaging speaker sparks an interest. Recently a speaker was scheduled at one’s college but conflicted with a class. Kid saw the conflict and looked no further. It turns out, I noticed that the speaker heads a graduate degree and certificate program in a local university in the area of my kid’s minor. Now that program is on my kid’s radar.</p>
<p>“People are reacting to what your words aren’t saying, but how they could be interpreted by a young adult.”</p>
<p>“Again, you aren’t saying explicitly that he’s a disappointment and therefore not as deserving as your dd,”</p>
<p>^ Well, there you go! I guess that’s how it seems, but not how it feels to ME. I think some of this might suffer in this form of communication, but point taken. I feel very sad right now, with the idea that either of our kids think they are disappointments, but in reality, I just don’t think that’s so. Ok, done feeling sad. Not as “deserving” of admission to Duke, that’s for sure. On the fence about “deserving” 200 K in college tuition.</p>
<p>It’s not “all our dollars”, it’s just the college fund dollars; and I don’t know that I have any “hopes” other them she be able to support herself, and be happy doing it. </p>
<p>With regard to brother, his current ambition is to be 2n actor. He has never acted but someone be met Xbox live in writing a TV show, with a leading role for my son… yeah…have a discouraged him? No? Will I pay for acting school? No. Did I suggest a backup plan? Yes. He says engineering… yeah, well we’ll see. He would like to play soccer in college, and he is okay at that ( actually GREAT by his school’s standards), and has put a lot of work into it. We are supporting that goal, but probably not to the tune of 50k. I have read with interest folks here suggesting an LAC might be the war to go, and now I’m wishing we had more money to work with. We could borrow it, but I’m glad I don’t have to decide yet.</p>
<p>This may seem odd, but learning how to skip classes without suffering academically is a skill your daughter, and all students, need to learn as they progress through college.</p>
<p>Eventually, they will need to miss lots of classes for job fairs, internship and job interviews, grad school visits, or out-of-town trips associated with extracurricular activities. They need to know how to get the missed information from classmates and professors. </p>
<p>So while it’s good to go to class, it’s also good to know how to miss a class without major academic consequences.</p>
<p>^ Ok, that makes sense. But I still can’t wrap my head around what it means when the grading rubric says something like, if you miss x classes, you can’t get Y grade… and you miss X classes. I only know this because she shared her surprise over getting Y grade any way. When I talked to her about procrastination last year, she said “everyone procrastinates and then they learn what they can get away with.” I know she’s right, but still. Gave me pause. Any way, we are glad she can tell me how sties thinking. It’s why H lets me do the “talking”.</p>
<p>When she was five, and playing soccer, all the other kids raced up and down the field, after each other, and after the ball. </p>
<p>She just stood there. I asked her "why? She said. … “they’ll be back”. </p>
<p>When she was eight, she said " you don’t understand me… you’ve NEVER understood me!"</p>
<p>(((Hugs))) to you, shrinkrap. I want to make clear that I’m not one of these squishy parenting types who think whatever makes little Johnny happy is the way it should be, that you should be a martyr to fullfill a child’s every wish and whim. I don’t think you should take a totally soulless job to keep your dd at Duke (I have a friend who is an MSW who took a job a couple of months ago that requires her to deny people service, etc, and she HATES it and already is looking elsewhere).</p>
<p>I’m all about direct communication in age-appropriate way. I am c&p’ing what blossom wrote on the second page:</p>
<p>"In my view, you can either afford to have her at Duke or you can’t. Simple story. I think it is very manipulative to be able to afford Duke if she majors in X but not in Y; it is extremely short-sighted to decide that you can afford it if she’s a B+ student but not a C student, etc. You can afford Duke- great. (understanding that there will be sacrifices from everyone, debt, etc.) </p>
<p>You can’t afford it- well it’s time to look at Plan B and that’s where you all need to focus-- finding an alternative which is do-able (which credits transfer? which don’t? what will it cost if she has to take an extra semester, take time off to find a school since it’s probably too late to get in anywhere for first semester, etc.)</p>
<p>Your somewhat muddled message of “we love you but you’ve messed up and now we don’t think it’s worth spending the money on you and by the way your siblings college fund is gone (not her fault by the way… would it be any “less gone” if she were an A student?) And plus Aunt Lil died because you got a D in math?” is, in my experience, going to set off a lot of bells."</p>
<p>So, can you afford Duke or not? Period. Not, can you afford it if dd gets better grades, not can you afford it if she majors in something dh wants, etc. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to tell a kid that you’re not going to or allow them to take on massive debt, especially, for instance, if the plan is to enter a low-paying position afterward (I’m talking something like a teacher, where you’ll be spending decades paying off megaloans on not a mega salary). But it’s not fair to change the rules midgame because her GPA isn’t quite what you wanted. Are you perhaps using that as a rationalization for doing what you think should really be done from a practical standpoint anyway, which is finding a cheaper option? She is old enough to understand a change in financial circumstances. However, I, personally, wouldn’t say you couldn’t afford it, because (and no judgment here), if you can afford really expensive car leases and such, the truth is you probably could afford it, but choose not spend your money on exorbitant tuition. And no need to rationalize that dh loves them and that it’s your only extravagance. That’s all fine and your call. We have denied our sons various things through the year – pricey select soccer teams, private pitching lessons – because our family values says that’s not the kind of thing we’re going to spend our money on. I’m just in favor of honesty about why we make the choices we make.</p>
<p>And I mention your ds because, well, kids should be treated fairly. That doesn’t mean equally, but I do think it’s unfair to spend $200K on your dd and then not be willing to spend the same amount on ds, if that proves to be the best route for him. I don’t think you should put everything into dd’s schooling at the expense of ds’s. How long until he starts college? Maybe he just hasn’t fund his niche yet.</p>
<p>"But it’s not fair to change the rules midgame because her GPA isn’t quite what you wanted. "</p>
<p>Where have I changed the rules? Do you mean increasing her contribution from $3,500 to $ 4,000k? I worried about that. I must say we didn’t know a lot when we first visited Duke 2 years ago. Most of all, we really had no idea she would get in, so we had to try to make sense of it very quickly, hoping we could figure it out as we went.</p>
<p>Sounds like that’s the rub… sharing with my D what we’ve learned.</p>
<p>Son is a junior. I think that’s a little late for his thoughts about acting, and not having laid the groundwork for engineering (see my old thread about “32 A’s plus 10 F’s equal a C” or something like that).He’s actually said he’d like a 2 year school. Funny you should mention soccer. We pay a lot for his soccer interests. He’s at a hotel for a tournament with his pricey club right now.</p>
<p>Ok, I realize I must sound defensive, so I will only read now. No more posts from me.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Sure. Here’s the first quote that leads me to that conclusion:
<a href=“from%20someone%20else”>quote</a> “You and your H think it would be worth the sacrifice if your D were majoring in science and was at the top of the class, but you resent having to sacrifice if she isn’t.”</p>
<p>(your response) Resent is strong but yes, we would feel better about it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Here’s another quote that leads me to that conclusion:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>What else am I supposed to conclude other than that you feel it would be worth the sacrifice if D were majoring in science and was receiving better grades than she is? You’ve communicated that you feel she’s at the “bottom” of her top 10 university … hence the discussion about potentially transferring to UC Davis where there is a belief (whether it’s right or wrong, I have no idea) that she could do better grades-wise.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I have two rising juniors, so I’m in a similar situation. I don’t know what you mean by “a little late for his thoughts about acting and not having laid the groundwork for engineering.” Are you suggesting that one must be locked into one’s career path by junior year of high school? For kids like yours and mine who are privileged enough to have upper middle class parents, Shrinkrap, the world is truly their oyster.</p>
<p>This has been a fascinating read.</p>
<p>Couple of comments: I think people are being enormously hard on Shrinkrap. I know many people, myself included, who have resorted to writing letters to our children at times when we wanted to outline points in a coherent way. Some of us get very long-winded in trying to convey points in person, and the kids lose the “gist” of the conversation. I don’t think that there is anything at all wrong with Shrink’s letter to her D.</p>
<p>Secondly, I think that many parents, not just Shrinkrap and her H, are concerned with how hard they are working and their own personal sacrifices being made for children who may not realize the extent of the sacrifice. I am not sure that I believe that so many parents are THAT cavalier about writing those large tuition checks and looking the other way while their kids are partying it up, not going to classes, failing classes, or whatever. The kids need to understand the sacrifices being made on their behalf—not out of guilt, but out of economic necessity.</p>
<p>I know two parents of rising Sophomores whose children had to transfer to less expensive schools, because the parents realized that they simply couldn’t afford these $$ schools. They were up front with the kids, and I imagine the kids will survive. These are the current economic realities, and 19 year olds are not 3. They are old enough to understand such realities.</p>
<p>I would not, however, make attendance at a school contingent on a major. I know that this has been discussed ad nauseum on this board, and others disagree. But I am very much a believer in “follow your passion”. My son is a music major. Will it play out for him, so to speak? Only time will tell. But he would have been one miserable engineering major, even though he comes from a long line of engineers, and we know it is a steady profession. We could never have said we would fund engineering and not music. But we did say we would not fund one program, because the associated costs were simply too great for us. He is following his bliss, at a program we can afford. </p>
<p>It sounds to me as if Duke is now too expensive for you. If so, I would tell your daughter the reality, and have her prepare transfer apps. Also, because you have another child to educate, it is important to have funding for him. I know families who spent all their college funding on the first child, and the anger and disappointment and jealousy from the siblings was great, and could follow them into their adult lives. </p>
<p>But I still wouldn’t make her attendance at Duke dependent on a major which you or your H think will be more valuable or lucrative. I realize other people may disagree with that assessment.</p>
<p>At any rate, I am in favor of opening up the lines of communication, however parents do it. Letters can work well. I hope it will all work out for Shrinkrap and her family.</p>
<p>Wow. I think that was my longest CC post ever!</p>
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</p>
<p>Yes. Exactly. Is it that the cost of Duke is worth it for science, but not for English? is it that the cost of Duke is worth it for a 3.5 student, but not a 3.0 student? It’s up to you what you decide, of course, but you ARE changing the rules midway. You didn’t say to her “you can only stay at Duke if you promise to be a science major.” You didn’t say to her “you can only stay at Duke if you promise to get a 3.5.” You said she could stay at Duke as long as she was not on academic probation. Well, she’s not. So you are changing the rules on her. And you’re springing them on her.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Right. And if your economic circumstance is such that you feel you have no choice but to “pull her down” to UC Davis and restrict S to UC schools as well because that’s all you’re able to and / or willing to spend, well, then fine. But then just do it, and it falls under the “sorry, honey, we don’t have enough money.” Don’t play games with her major or her GPA not being “good enough” (and yes, her GPA not being good enough is PRECISELY what your first post conveyed) when you never set any expectation that it had to be X in order for her to stay at Duke.</p>
<p>Nice post, allmusic. I agree with much of it.<br>
I completely agree parents shouldn’t be cavalier about writing large tuition checks if kids are partying, etc. However, there is a difference between trying and not doing well because the subject matter doesn’t click, and not trying at all. A “honest D” acquired in good faith is one thing. A “partied too hard D” is another.</p>
<p>I, too, am a believer that you have to study / do what you find interesting, and the money will follow. I’m afraid to ask why Shrinkrap’s H is so intent on science as a “better” major, but I have a feeling I can guess.</p>
<p>"You said she could stay at Duke as long as she was not on academic probation. Well, she’s not. </p>
<p>So you are changing the rules on her. And you’re springing them on her."</p>
<p>Where, please? Checks are on autopilot. We have been paying fall tuition since May. She has a room, a roomate, classes picked. No science, no math, no major.</p>
<p>"I’m afraid to ask why Shrinkrap’s H is so intent on science as a “better” major, but I have a feeling I can guess. "</p>
<p>Please share…we call that a “projective”.</p>
<p>okay, no more, I PROMISE…</p>
<p>You’re right, shrinkrap. You’re not changing the rules on her. You’re just guilting her because of all the money being spent on her and the fact that she’s “bottom of the class.”</p>