A note about Canadian Universities (VS American)

<p>aca0260,</p>

<p>In state for University of Florida is about $13 000USD. UBC, on the other hand, ranges from about $4000CAD to $14 000CAD (depends on the program you're taking. Dentistry and Medicine are the most expensive) for Canadian residents, regardless of which province the student resides in. Now, in American dollars, that's just over $3000 to just over $11 000. Most Canadian universities are around that range as well.</p>

<p>I agree that grade 11 marks should be taken into consideration. I actually always thought that universities took in grade 11 and 12 marks. I mean, when you're applying in grade 12, you really would have only completed one semester (two reporting terms)</p>

<p>aca0260...</p>

<p>i have no idea *** your talking about...american high school system is hard?
and you think the APs are challenging?...lol...
anyone who puts a bit of effort into AP classes can pull off 4 or 5 eaisly. Several of my friends (in the IB diploma programme) did APs in order to get credit for university...most of them got 5s without even trying, however they didnt do very well on the actual IB exams...
anyway we did some APs (econ, Calculus BC, chem, bio) for for practice for our IB exams...and i think most of us got perfect marks....as far as i can tell they exams them selves where extremely easy compared to what we have doing in prepartion for the IB...
and only about 10% of the american high students take APs....what the rest of the students learn? addition?
If AP is as challenging as it gets in america...u guys must have some serious problems. In most european/asian schools they are doing 2nd and 3rd year university material
And i fail to understand why florida has the lowest IB scores in the world. The education standard in florida must be extremely low, i mean the University of florida offers anyone who JUST passes the IB (a mere 24 points) a full scholarship...how desperate are they?
you need 36-39 points just to get into mcgill or queen's...since you say selectivity is key in judging quality and prestige...how can you even compare?</p>

<p>and i can assure you that the canadian education system is challenging and definaltey more challenging than the american one, especially since everyone has to take equally challenging courses..they cant choose AP, honours, regular or whateva..</p>

<p>Anyway, we here in europe consider american high schools to have extremely low standards (except the magnet private ones)...although the american universities are considered to top-notch</p>

<p>i have a lot of cousins studying in florida, NY, philly...and most of them are pulling off a 4.0 GPA without even trying...and some of them who were in the IB diploma program barely passed...</p>

<p>Its only the top 5% of students in america that have high education standards...for the other 95% the standards are getting worse</p>

<p>Lol, dont tell me to skip, I made this thread.</p>

<p>Stephable, I'm beginning to think that you have no idea what you are talking about. You keep on arguing topics that no one else brings up but you. I'll give you a couple of examples..
1. Why do you keep on referring to your LAC? It has nothing to do with the what aca is trying to convey. He is talking about how Canadian High schools do not level up with American ones and yet you are still referring to your "LAC". Well I guess the only experience you have with university...sorry college.
2. What does having good grade 9 and 10 marks on your transcript , for college admissions, have to do with anything about the competitiveness of Canadian high schools?</p>

<p>Stop straying offtopic because you have no evidence to back up your statements.</p>

<p>dooit, just because you started a thread doesn't mean you have the right to dictate the direction it takes. If you want this thread to address other issues, be proactive and bring them up rather than just complaining. </p>

<p>Now here are the answers to your questions:</p>

<p>1)Here is a quote from aca:</p>

<p>I guess heres my point...alot of people have this misconception that canadian university offers a tremendous amount of quality for a cheap price, even for internationals.</p>

<p>As you can see, we are discussing the quality and price of Canadian universities as well as high school systems. So my referring to my LAC is not off-topic at all. Do try to pay attention. Also, in my first post, I referred to my high school experience, as well as that of others I know, so university is not "the only experience" I have.</p>

<p>2) It has nothing to do with the competitiveness of Canadian high schools. I was talking about the fact that Canadian admissions is fairly non-competitive. All I meant was that there's plenty of space in these universities to begin with, so why do we need to differentiate students further by looking at their grade 9/10 marks. I doubt it would make a difference as to who was admitted.</p>

<p>stephable</p>

<p>1) I hear stories like mine all the time. I think its particuarly worse in my area...which is kind of odd because it is relatively affluent.</p>

<p>2) 15 States are ranked in the top 50. Typically of a Canadian, you dont realize this to be an accomplishment because the large numbers fool you. How do you expect public universities to compete with the most well financed institutions in the world? I think they have done very well for themselves. You would be naive to believe Canada would have more than 3 in the top 50 (which is actually an accomplishment in itself if you factor in the disparity in populations). And 10 states are missing because, like I said it is a more federal system that was specifically advanced by President Reagan. Those states do not have enough electorate to need a Michigan or Berkeley. I suppose it is somewhat unfair to them so I grant you that, but it isnt as bad as you make it seem because those states are not very populated.</p>

<p>3) Well Im not sure how Mount Allison does it but Ontario only looks at 12th grade for admission. You can have a 50% avg in grade 11 as long as you meet the grade 12 avgs. However, you will most likely be ineligible for early admission</p>

<p>CDN - Yes those numbers are very similar but you have to think about the average tax payer in both countries. The average tax payer in Canada will be at more of a loss because he is substantially funding the heavily subsidized canadian universities. Florida doesnt even have a state tax or tax on primary residential home (Homestead Clause). Of course, Florida is extraordinary because it is a tourist state, but you get where Im going.</p>

<p>dkm - You make some incredibly unsupported statements. Let me begin by saying I have done the IB program, I have taken AP courses, I have been to a magnet school, I have been to a prep school (American), and I have been to Canadian school in two different provinces (Ontario, NF). Thus, you will realize that Im not manifesting jibberish. Alot of what I say is from personal experience but I support my arguments often with stats or at least some attempt at a proof.</p>

<p>1) Magnet schools are not private. They are always public schools.</p>

<p>2) I found AP's to be quite challenging. I believe IB is of the same caliber, perhaps a bit harder. But you have to realize that AP is not a program. IB is a program that harbors intelligent, driven students. I was told from day 1 that IB is for kids who work hard, not the exceptionally brilliant and I believe that statement is true. AP is the most challenging option left to students not in this program and who frankly dont want to participate in it. From my experience, IB didnt particularly aid me in college admission. My friends who took several APs were better off because IB credits were not rewarded out of my state and AP are seen in a better light in general (in the states). And perhaps only 10% of the kids in the US take APs, but at least they have the OPTION. Canada (well ontario) does not offer anything but University Track. I found that placing all university bound students into one level damaged the curriculum and the students because there should be different levels to suit students of different abilities.</p>

<p>3) "in most european/asian schools they are doing 2nd and 3rd year university model" Perhaps you are exaggerating but I have an extremely difficult time believing that statement. There may be several or some, but most is a strong word and I would hesitate to use it in that context.</p>

<p>4)"florida has the lowest IB scores in the world" For this Im going to need a source. You are telling me that among all the 3rd world countries and their provinces, Florida has the lowest scores? I will have to check about the IB scholarship thing because I did IB in Florida and I have absolutely no knowledge of this. Regardless, IB scores have little effect on the overall selectivity of a school. DKM, the world doesnt revolve around IB. I will tell you as a dual citizen, that getting into Florida out of state is more difficult than getting into Queens or McGill as an american (or canadian for that matter as anyone with above 80% gets in Queens arts and anyone with above 85 gets into McGill arts). I believe McGill and Queens routinely take people with scores at or above 1200. University of Florida has an avg SAT score of 1260 and you have to factor all the instate kids that bring that down. So the out of state is somewhere at or above 1300. At the least, their selectivites are comparable so you cannot bash UofF on the grounds of selectivity.</p>

<p>5) Overall, high school ed in the states is nothing to boast about, considering the wealth and influence of the US. I was not really heralding the US as I was expressing my belief that canadian high school is nothing special. I believe the 2004 Macleans has an article by the dean of the rotman school in which he says canadians have a superior attitude about their education when that attitude is without merit. Canadians believe their system is top of the line when, from my experience, it is bottom of the barrel. Apparently other provinces are doign something right but Canada is not the beacon of educational glory. Furthermore, I believe US should be proud of its public post-sec education. There is a ridiculous number of quality state schools and I dont buy the whole "Everything is expensive in the US" argument because as a domestic, the US is comparable if not cheaper than Canadian university for a domestic canadian.</p>

<p>so when did you go to a canadian high school and when did you go to an american?</p>

<p>and cmon man if you say the educational standards in Canada is lower than that of the US noone is going to believe you </p>

<p>
[quote]
Magnet schools are not private. They are always public schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>they are private alright atleast in the context the OP was using it in.</p>

<p>I know people from Ontario public high schools who have AP or IB credits. Check your facts.</p>

<p>I just checked the York University site and they require a COMPLETE secondary school transcript. Apparently not all universities in Ontario require only grade 12 marks. Check your facts.</p>

<p>You think...</p>

<p>Sparsely populated states don't need good, affordable education systems because not a lot of people live in them?</p>

<p>Canadians "typically" don't understand the math of what goes on in the states?</p>

<p>Nothing in Canada matters unless it happens in Ontario?</p>

<p>Because you went to a bad school in Ontario, all Canadian schools are bottom of the barrel? </p>

<p>I'm done with this argument. There are too many generalizations, stereotypes, and prejudices masking as rational discourse. Goodbye.</p>

<p>Stephable - you seem to be stuck on the same points. You have to be enrolled in an IB program at an IB school in order to take IB. If an IB school is not in your area, you cannt take IB, simple as that. AP is also limited in Canada whereas almost every high school in the US offers AP so dont twist my words...you know exactly what I mean. A broader range of courses are offered in the US.</p>

<p>Second - you clearly have no idea how the ontario system works so do not attempt to inform me (someone who just went through the process). York says they require a transcript. How in the world did you come to the conclusion that this means they consider all courses in high school? Of course they require a high school transcript. How could you be admitted to any university without a high school transcript??? They only CONSIDER Grade 12, simple as that. I am amazed you know noone in Ontario who can explain this to you. I am even more amazed at how readily you attack someone who has just been on through the admissions process in Ontario...a little naive. You seem to make assumptions/generalizations yourself by believing a transcript requirement entails a consideration of all courses in high school. </p>

<p>Third - You need to improve your comprehension. I said from MY EXPERIENCE, Canadian school is bottom of the barrel. And whether you like to believe it or not, Canadians usually do not understand that a unviersity ranked in the top 100 in the states is quality. Why? Because there are only 47 universities in Canada. Of course that statement is a generalization because I am sure not EVERY canadian thinks that way but I have encountered many that do. Likewise, I have never encountered any americans who think that way....you get my point? Regardless, you are right, that was a generalization.</p>

<p>You seem to make some generalizations yourself - "Nothing matters in Canada unless it happens in Ontario"...I never once said this so thats a flat out lie. Since you are having tremendous difficulty understanding my point I will explain AGAIN. Ontario is 40% of Canada and as such, what goes on in Ontario reflects upon the entire nation to a considerable degree. "My school was bad so all of Canada is bad" You are fallaciously simplifying my point. That is one of the most prominent logical fallacies. I explained numerous times that my school is the best in my region and it is atrocies. Thus, my entire region, in an afluent neighbhorhood, in the richest province in Canada has terrible schooling. That doesnt quite sound like what you said does it? Thats called logical fallacy.</p>

<p>Having just read this, I am sure you realize you have been completely hypocritical. This conversation was never conducted through means of formal logic in the first place. You need to get off your hypocritical rational high horse...whatsmore, you need to check YOUR facts before attacking others when you are grossly incorrect. </p>

<p>Goodbye and take care</p>

<p>nomad - I began at a magnet school in the states as a child, went to prep school in the states, then public in NFLD, then public in Ontario, then public back in Florida</p>

<p>US better than Canada? Thats not quite what Im saying. I am saying that Canadians possess a superior attitude about their education that frankly doesnt live up to its name. My experience was TERRIBLE but I am willing to accept that others may not have had such troubles. It is just troubling that my school is regarded as good. My school in NF was terrible as well.</p>

<p>And whats this about magnets being private? What is an op? Im not sure what you mean but magnets are public schools that were created as an initiative to bring students from the suburbs into the inner-city as a means to promote unity and tolerance. They are not private.</p>

<p>@dkm008 - </p>

<p>IB does require more work than AP. However, IB limits the # of courses you can take - you aren't able to take, for instance, 8 IB exams/courses in one year no matter how smart you are.</p>

<p>Further, placing all students on one level, as you so extol Canadian schools for doing, is a HORRIBLE idea. It prevents the best and brightest from seperating themselves from the pack, and it forces the lower end of the spectrum into classes they probably aren't ready for. Letting kids take the courses they want to enables everyone to succeed at higher levels.</p>

<p>
[quote]

If AP is as challenging as it gets in america...u guys must have some serious problems. In most european/asian schools they are doing 2nd and 3rd year university material

[/quote]

Finally, given that many (I won't say most because I don't know) internationals, both in Asia and Europe, use either the IB curriculum or the GCE A levels, I don't think you can possibly claim that foreign high schoolers are taking 3rd year university courses. If they were that advanced, then why would they ever apply to American universities? And how could Americans ever apply to foreign universities, if they were 2-3 years behind their foreign counterparts?</p>

<p>In regards to the statement that in someplaces in European/Asian schools doing 2nd or 3rd year university level material, I know that in China, and I believe South Korea (not entirely sure about South Korea), the students there often study 1st and 2nd year university level science/math to prepare for their exam. In China, one exam taken in grade 12 determines where that student will go for university. The students there essentially spend their entire school career preparing for that one exam (when graduating elementary/primary level, the students take an exam that determines which high school they can go to). At some of the top high schools in China, they will start teaching the students some 1st year university science to give them an edge in the science portion of the grade 12 exam. </p>

<p>aca0260, while Canadians pay more in taxes than Americans (on average), the average American will have to pay more for private health insurance. In total, it's about the same in cost (taxes+health insurance)</p>

<p>CDN dancer, Americans also get better healthcare.</p>

<p>For those that can afford it, yes that's true. However, many Americans (I think I read somewhere that it was 40 million, although I'm not sure) don't have any health insurance. One difference between the public system of Canada and the private system of the US is the waiting lists. Those willing to pay more for a surgical procedure or an MRI can (always?) go to a different clinic and get the procedure done, instead of waiting for months on a waiting list. In Canada, regardless of how much money a person has, they have to wait on one waiting list. The waiting time for non-life threatening procedures is ridiculously long in Canada (it's supposed to be improving, but not quite there yet).</p>

<p>cdn - both my parents are doctors and one has practiced in both systems. She is willing to pay for private health insurance in order to avoid the near 40% tax bracket she is in. In addition, there is 15% sales tax in Ontario whereas Florida only has 6%. I believe even with private health care, canadians are being ripped off. Overall, with the amount of taxes payed, Im amazed unviersities arent free here. Im startled that americans who pay less tax, pay the same tuition as canadians. What are they doing with the money in the great white north?</p>

<p>
[quote]
and most of them are pulling off a 4.0 GPA without even trying

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I live in BC, and it's quite easy to have a 4.0 GPA here without trying too hard as well. Since an A is 86% and above, you don't have to be a total grade grubber to get a perfect GPA. However, you will very rarely see those 99% grade averages that some American CCers seem to have. And they're only ranked 5th or something! The highest mark at in my grade is like a 95.8, and that's a bit skewered as the kid who has that mark doesn't take any advanced/AP courses.</p>

<p>CDN - I totally agree, we use free-enterprise healthcare, which is good for those who can afford it.</p>

<p>do you know how progressive the taxes are in Canada by any chance? I heard it was almost 70% in the top bracket</p>

<p>is McGill and BCIT hard to get into, in general?</p>

<p>McGill is considered one of the top universities in Canada. I don't know how selective it is. I don't know about BCIT (British Columbia Intitute of Technololgy?)</p>

<p>thethoughtprocess, it's my understanding that the tax percentage will vary between provinces. The federal tax percent is about 25%. Then the provinces will charge some taxes and the total (provincial + federal) will vary. The highest I believe is in Newfoundland at 56%. In Alberta, where I live, it's about 45% for the top bracket. Also the sales tax will vary. Alberta is the only province without PST (Provincial Sales Tax) so we just have GST (7%).</p>

<p>If there's any other Canadans out there, please correct me if I've explained our tax system incorrectly!</p>

<p>Yes... British Columbia Institute of Technology.</p>

<p>I heard it was as good, if not better, than MIT.</p>

<p>What's your source for BCIT being equal to or better than MIT? I can't speak for quality because I don't know any specific information about the programs at BCIT, but for prestige, MIT would almost definitely beat it.</p>

<p>Just another comment about university costs. In the US, for an in-state resident it will cost roughly $13 000USD per year for an undergraduate degree. I think someone earlier was saying that Canadians are paying almost the same. However, at most Canadian universities, it costs between $4000CAD and $7000CAD per year for an undergraduate degree. That's just over $3000USD to approximately $6000USD</p>