A question from a student to parents that aren't her own

Parents Forum
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<p>One violadad to another, I'm not sure I understand your post.</p>

<p>My philosophy is pretty simple: if you want to go to college to get rich, study something with a high probability of making you rich. I generally have little advice for such people.</p>

<p>If you want to study music, study music.<br>
Extracting a living from it is a separate issue (but that's true with logic, history, sociology, art, English, economics, biology, and many other oversubscriped-to-the-marketplace majors).</p>

<p>My purpose in replying to missypie was to lend another voice to the debate that ensues about "fall backs" whenever a student on cc raises the issue of studying music. </p>

<p>As an aside, I don't believe that music ed is a particularly difficult major to do as an older student.</p>

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<p>Right, Keilexandra, sorry. I should have been more explicit. I was commenting about trying to use an unimproved student instrument through college. I absolutely concede the point about the head joint!</p>

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<p>MSUDad, we're effectively of similar minds. Just adding my voice to yours.</p>

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<p>Skullduggery, have we all gotten out of control with the music school advice? It seems to have taken on a life of its own!</p>

<p>Take another look at Sybbie's advice at post #12, and rethink the SUNYs.
You have a good start with Geneseo, Bing, Cortland, Albany. </p>

<p>However, if you want to consider Music Ed, those schools don't have it. The SUNY Music Ed schools are Potsdam, Fredonia and Buffalo State (not UBuffalo, they are two different schools).</p>

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<p>Keilexandra...getting accepted as a performance major on flute is VERY different than getting accepted in the state All State ensemble. Most of the students applying for flute performance WILL be playing better quality instruments...most of them would have upgraded during high school. </p>

<p>The OP's initial question was in regards to financing school. I just wanted to add that if music is what she/he will be pursuing, the audition factor cannot be ignored for admissions and for financial aid. Some schools (Hartt is one) do not offer music majors ANY other type of aid except performance based aid from the Hartt School. Boston University awards both academic and performance awards, but you would have to be near the top of the academic pool to get an academic scholarship, and probably AT the top (on flute) to get a music performance award.</p>

<p>The OP needs to check the schools. And I would urge them to check their state universities. SUNY Stony Brook has a fine music program. So does Crane School at SUNY Potsdam and SUNY Purchase. I didn't see any of these schools on the OP's list (but I could have missed them). Is the OP from NY?? If not, what state?</p>

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<p>At the end of the day, the OP will need to go where her grades and her $$ can take her. That being said I think she should immediately cross the following schools off of her list because they will not be financially feasible options for her family:</p>

<p>VCU & Penn State because as an OOS they will end up being financially out of reach.</p>

<p>CUNY- while the tuition is quite affordable, unless she has a family member to live with in NYC, and because there are virtually no dorms (the overwhelming majorrity of CUNY students are communters), the cost of living in NYC is not financially feasible.</p>

<p>Boston University- I don't think they will come through with the money, because unless you are someone that they really want to attract, they are not the most generous with their FA. OP could assess her probability of getting aid: </p>

<p>Boston</a> University - Office of Financial Assistance - Applying for Financial Aid</p>

<p>BU does not meet 100% demonstrated need so OP will have to find a way to fill the gap.</p>

<p>Skidmore College, SUNY Albany, SUNY Binghamton,SUNY Cortland
SUNY Geneseo, Syracuse University and the SUNYs that thumper mentioned: OP should definitely apply through (H) EOP. To have the best shot at getting the $$ she should have her SUNY apps ready to go before the end of september. </p>

<p>Consider looking into Cornell:</p>

<p>The Educational Opportunity Program (EOP) at the contract colleges: the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences; the College of Human Ecology; and the School of Industrial and Labor Relations.</p>

<p>The Arthur O. Eve Higher Education Opportunity Program (HEOP) at the endowed colleges: the College of Arts and Sciences; the College of Architecture, Art, and Planning; the College of Engineering; and the School of Hotel Administration.</p>

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<p>Oh, it really isn't a problem. I like listening to the opinions (and arguments!) of others, especially those people who are elder and actually know what they're talking about, and music of some variation has been my idea of a major since I was eleven, so it does help to see what helps and what hurts.</p>

<p>Oops! You are absolutely right; I added those schools carelessly and without background research because it was forcefully suggested by both guidance counselors and parents. I was tired and grumpy and just said them to shush people, which was despicably foolhardy. However, I was fairly certain that Cortland had a music program because an acquaintance of mine got into the musical theatre department. Geneseo appears to have a music major as well, from the prospectus they sent to me. But if that is where you say, then that's good as well, especially since in retrospect I have seen those posters around the band room. I still don't know if I want ed or not, though. It is a possibility, but not an absolute, so perhaps I should apply to those schools anyway, given they have general music programs? Doesn't matter to me, as I was honestly not attached to any of those four schools.</p>

<p>Okay, as said, I didn't research my schools thoroughly, and I am glad that many of you are here to correct my errors. Stony Brook, Purchase, and Potsdam all sound good; maybe I'll just apply to those plus Fredonia and Buffalo and hope for the best, since my guidance office has a ton of SUNY fee waivers.</p>

<p>PSU and VCU are some of my top schools and I am hesitant to remove them from my list because of that fact. (I have wanted to go to PSU since I was three, if that gives you any sort of picture, and upon visiting seemed the perfect atmosphere for me.) Either way, even as an OOS, they are cheaper than places like Skidmore and Syracuse by nearly half the cost. PSU is fairly frugal with their aid, and FAFSA can help with the $24.5K/year cost and I can take out loans on the rest. VCU I am not too knowledgeable about and am currently visiting the site. Thank you, but no thank you; wise or not, I would prefer to keep them on.</p>

<p>CUNY was a shoo-in school and Boston...well, yeah, Boston isn't looking good for me, anyway. Too bad I already have the application finished. Mind you, nearly half of the people at my grade and income level receive school aid. If I get the aid, I'll consider it to go; if not, then it's off my list. No big deal. Do you honestly think that I could get into Cornell, though? Last I knew, it was a highly selective school and that won't bode well, considering my HS grades, even if the transferable college ones are appropriate.</p>

<p>So, I suppose the updated list is: Amherst, Berea, Boston U (pending aid), Carleton (was just searching and it sounds a good suit to me), Hampshire, Oberlin, Penn State U, Simmons, Skidmore, SUNY Buffalo/Fredonia/Potsdam/Purchase/Stony Brook, Syracuse, Virginia Commonwealth U. Sixteen schools, but at least eight I know that I can get fee waivers for, and I'm pretty attached to most of them. The only downside is that they are all really competitive and the only safety that I can see is VCU.</p>

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<p>Regarding the SUNYs:</p>

<p>Yes, Geneseo, Bing, Purchase, etc. all have music programs. They just don't have Music ED programs. Cortland even has a musical theatre program (BA).</p>

<p>Another thought: think about a Music Therapy major. Fredonia has a good program. Might be an interesting alternative.</p>

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<p>Scull...the other thing you need to consider if you are planning a music major of most any kind...you will need to audition for every program in some way. Some schools do accept taped auditions, but not too many do on flute. Also check your list. Some schools actually do a prescreen by tape before they allow you to audition on flute. In any event, SIXTEEN auditions is too many to do. You will have difficulty scheduling that many in the audition time period (you can't really do two on the same day)...and you will also run out of stamina. DS did seven auditions, and to be honest, that was too many.</p>

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<p>Only if you are HEOP eligible then you could have a chance at Cornell & Skidmore. You may have a good chance at Syracuse because they will cut you come slack on the SAT/GPA requirements as long as you have an 85 average and meet the income guidelines (they can be a little flexible if you are slightly over the CR scores, but you must fall within the income range).</p>

<p>I understand that CUNY may be a shoo-in for you but where are you going to live and how are you going to pay for it?</p>

<p>
[quote]
PSU is fairly frugal with their aid, and FAFSA can help with the $24.5K/year cost and I can take out loans on the rest.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>As an OOS, the cost to attend Penn State is $37,834 a year ($151,336 not including increases).</p>

<p>The only thing that the FAFSA does is determine whether you are eligible for federal aid: pell grants ~4800, ACG grants, stafford loans $5500 freshman year and 31,000 total over 4 years and perkins loans - $4,000 /yr $16,000 over 4 years. </p>

<p>Even if you were to max out on federal aid ($14,200, $62,000 over 4 years), where is the rest of the $$ coming from? </p>

<p>Have you considered the fact that just from perkins and stafford loans you will accumulate $47,000 worth of debt before you even borrow the rest of the money to attend Penn State?</p>

<p>Is Penn State really worth $100,000 of debt provided you can find a lender to loan you this money?</p>

<p>If your parents are in dire straits, they will not be in the postition to co-sign for a student loan.</p>

<p>FinAid</a> | Loans | Student Loans</p>

<p>In the end you will still be an out of state student trying to get a considerable amount of aid (unless you can throw long , rush some serious yardage, or at the top of the applicant pool for OOS, it probably won't happen). If you can get a fee waiver, it will cost you nothing to apply but just go into this with your eyes open.</p>

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<p>Just a quick chime in. My wife was as poor as you, didn't speak English well (refugee) and went to high school in the South Bronx (when it was too dangerous to go to a bathroom). Vassar saved her life. Full scholarship PLUS spending money. They are holistic regarding grades and SATs and there is a lot of scholarship money devoted to helping indigent students. Worth applying.</p>

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<p>I thought Vassar would have been rather tougher as a Seven Sister, though? It costs a lot, and I'm really not that outstanding as a student to get a scholarship, by usual means.</p>

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<p>Just chiming in as a current Vassar student -- Vassar is very holistic in its admissions process. I was strong in my "stats" when I applied, but I've talked to many people who weren't. Your extracurricular activities, etc., are really strong and I think they would definitely appeal to the admissions officers. Vassar doesn't offer merit-based aid; they only offer need-based aid. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions about the school in general (but I don't know much about financial aid, so if you have questions about that you might want to direct them to the Vassar forum).</p>

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<p>Skullduggery,</p>

<p>I'm going to put the issues of auditions aside for the present, as I don't have sufficient experience to helpful in that regard. Perhaps someone knows if it is possible to enroll in the bio program and then declare a second major in music?</p>

<p>If you do get fee waivers, apply to Vassar or any other school that may have what you want ---in addition to your academic and financial safeties. Cast a wide net and include LACs in which your stats place you in the top quarter. Fill out all the FA and scholarship forms, wait for decisions, then wait for FA offers. In our experience, you just might be surprised to find out which schools come through.</p>

<p>Yes, it does take considerable time and effort to craft your applications, but the potential payoff is high.</p>

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<p>I think you should take a chance and apply for the CUNY Honors program...it'd be great for you to not have to worry about paying for tuition, a dorm, or a laptop.</p>

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<p>mafool- to answer your question, it is very school specifc. It may be possible in a BA academically based music program. A declaration of a performance or mus ed major in all BM and most BA programs once matriculated will still require an audition. It MIGHT be waived in a program for a qualified performer where a year of performing ensemble experience has been established. It might also require an additional semester or year (read as expense) of coursework to fulfill degree requirements for either a performance or mus ed degree. It's a good question to ask or investigate, but the criteria will be very institution specific.</p>

<p>Skull, you have gotten some excellent advice from a number of posters.</p>

<p>As for the SUNY music programs, Purchase is a conservatory level program, a tough audition based admit for a number of exceptional players. Many of the faculty are or have been concurrently on faculty at top programs such as Curtis, Julliard, Mannes, MSM, Hartt, Bard, Rutgers/Mason Gross, others. </p>

<p>Stony Brook may be a bit more grad focused than undergrad for music disciplines.</p>

<p>Potsdam/Crane is excellent and has a national rep for producing excellent and sought after music educators.</p>

<p>Fredonia's program is solid, and a very good option. Buffalo has a well rounded program, but I believe the strengths may lie in the academic music disiplines.</p>

<p>I don't know enough about the other SUNY programs. </p>

<p>My perspective from your posts is that you haven't really given a music degree, be it general music, ed or performance a lot of forethought. From a performance major standpoint, your skills in comparison to the talent pool auditioning (particularly flute) may be sorely lacking. I could be wrong on both assumptions.</p>

<p>Don't go into music thinking it's an easy admit or an easy degree. It's not. Music ed and performance majors are both very credit intensive degrees. As a mus ed major, you can find a teaching job, but in times of budgetary cuts these programs tend to be the first cut in many public school programs. In the performance field there are far more qualified candidates than there are liveable wage jobs.</p>

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<p>You are absolutely right, I have not given music majoring much thought. It was undoubtedly stupid to have stopped thinking about tomorrow, but over the past three years, I have been caught up in raising my grades, finding colleges who may accept me for my grades and low ability to pay, trying to find a mental balance (bipolar), and trying to impress my band director, all of these to an extreme that left no time for university research. It is a major flaw, especially considering how little time I have had even this summer to research programs. And I am sorry for putting you all through the strain of trying to figure out what I want, when even I am uncertain what that is. It probably makes me look like a typical shallow teenager.</p>

<p>From the sound of it, music ed appears to be the most steady option, but a friend of mine is doing general music and enjoys it, and music therapy also sounds good, and I love performing. On top of that, at some schools, like Skidmore and Vassar, it is common to be involved with music without actually majoring. To be frank with you, I don't know what I want with music, just that I adore it. I love playing, teaching, performing, listening, everything about music. (It is a passion that rivals even my vehement want to change the world, which is currently the main drive in my life.) An existence without music is simply impossible for me to imagine, and to bring the joy of it to other people through whatever medium humanly possible would make me feel whole. But I don't know where this honest love of those little black lines on paper can take me from here because my skills still need a bit of work before auditions (mind you, I am confident that I can pass through them). It's sort of a sticky wicket; I have always, always wanted to make music a lifelong career, as far back as I can remember. How to transform this desire to reality, though, is the real problem. I know that it's hard. I know that my chances are small. I like a challenge.</p>

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<p>Skul, </p>

<p>I admire your pluck and tenacity, and let me say that the college search/financial process is by no means easy. To compound it with a specialized major choice makes it more difficult. In the performing arts, the parameters change again, depending on the discipline. Financial aid becomes even more cloudy, as talent awards range from full rides, full tuition, to a pittance. At some schools, academic merit is awarded in addition to talent scholarships. It is very school specific.</p>

<p>I'm assuming your a senior. I don't know your level of musical talent, training or potential. From a performance standpoint, you may be exceptional, competent, or marginal. Flute is one of the most competitive instruments in an audition based program. To truly assess your talent (and potential) in a performance program, the best advice is to be evaluated by an active performing professional, or a faculty member of a conservatory level program. To even attempt a performance based admit, especially on flute, without an unbiased expert opinion is an exercise in futility. My guess is that you are vastly unprepared, and you are late in the game.</p>

<p>I'm not here to burst any bubbles, but please understand your chances and your options from a musical standpoint. There are far more qualified posters than I to counsel you academically or to suggest schools with histories of awarding substantial "free" money. Some of these MAY serve you musically, many may not.</p>

<p>
[quote]
From the sound of it, music ed appears to be the most steady option, but a friend of mine is doing general music and enjoys it, and music therapy also sounds good, and I love performing. On top of that, at some schools, like Skidmore and Vassar, it is common to be involved with music without actually majoring.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>General music at the BA level may or may not be audition based, but will require you meet the school's academic threshold. It is a survey course of study, and covers theory, aural skills, composition, music history; there may be piano/keyboard requirements, some level of ensemble participation, both instrumental and vocal; private lessons may or may not be included. There are also numerous liberal arts requirements and elective credits within a BA. The program may or may not prepare you for state certification to teach publically, depending on the institution. The BM is more intense musically, and has fewer liberal arts requirements or room for electives.</p>

<p>Music ed is normally an audition, academic (and interview)based admit. The level of proficiency on an instrument is usually at a lower standard than performance majors. BA, BS, BM programs are available. Similar course of study to general music, but will include basic conducting, general educational theory and psychology, music technique teaching courses, basic instrumental competency across many instruments, piano/keyboard proficiency, vocal studies, and instrument lessons/ensemble participation. It may or may not result in initial state licensure. The BS may include more ed theory and practice coursework and fewer elective choices; the BM will include more music theory, applied music teaching, and ensemble/private instrument instruction, with little room for electives.</p>

<p>I don't know enough about music therapy to comment in detail, but can put you in contact with some that are. If interested, PM me. It may be an option that would suit you well.</p>

<p>If you choose to apply to an audition based program, please begin your audition prep as early as possible. Beg, plead, hire the best private teacher you can swing. Practice long and hard. You will be competing against peers who have been preparing since elementary school, with years of intense private instruction, top line instruments, top flight summer programs and youth orchestras. But remember, money does not buy success.</p>

<p>Please read the following. You have a daunting task, and you need as much insight as possible.</p>

<p>Navigating</a> Music Careers
Peabody</a> Institute - Conservatory Admissions: The Double Degree Dilemma
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/460187-how-many-music-voice-performance-majors-find-jobs.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/460187-how-many-music-voice-performance-majors-find-jobs.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/6280-suggestions-colleges-music-majors.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/6280-suggestions-colleges-music-majors.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/63770-best-schools-give-most-merit-based-aid.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/63770-best-schools-give-most-merit-based-aid.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/444532-list-colleges-free-apply.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/444532-list-colleges-free-apply.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/240407-audition-tips-info.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/240407-audition-tips-info.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>And remember a BA or BM in a music discipline is a four year degree. It will provide you the same qualifications as any liberal arts degree, and allow you to compete for the same jobs. What you make of it is up to you. </p>

<p>Good luck to you.</p>

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<p>Skull,</p>

<p>there are areas I haven't touched on, but are important for anyone contemplating a music path.</p>

<p>In a performance discipline the paramount criteria is most often the specific instrumental instructor. It is more than a teacher/student relationship. The private instructor must be a mentor, confidant, sounding board. The teaching/playing style and technique, philosophy and outlook must mesh, or at least be compatible. One student's perfect teacher can be another's nightmare from hell. It is a four year relationship, and often lasts for decades. It can open doors or kill chances. It is not unusual for a number of students to follow faculty if they change institutions. Most performance majors actually take trial lessons with a number of alternative teachers at potential schools, and the common wisdom is to not committ to a performance program without an idea of compatability. Yes, this can be expensive, but many try to arrange lessons in conjunction with a school visit.</p>

<p>Other aspects beyond financial are often based on level and number of ensembles, facility quality, percentage of undergrad to grad students, conservatory or conservatory/academic combo, outside exposure and gigging opportunities, and level of peers across all instruments. </p>

<p>For a high level, professionally performing aspirant, these areas are critical. For general music, music ed, some of these aspects become less critical, but for a student playing at a preprofessional/conservatory level (and this includes MANY music ed and general music degree candidates) used to high level ensembles and peers, some of the music programs are inadequate insofar as the peer level is simply not up to their level of play.</p>

<p>Playing down a level or three is musically frustrating and self defeating. Playing up to a higher peer level will make one a better overall musician. That's why many music programs are less than adequate for those intending to pursue music at the highest level, regardless of the name of the parent institution or the fact they may have a music department.</p>

<p>Depending on your needs and level, you can pick and choose your parameters. I offer this as background in the event you were unaware.</p>

<p>Do not address music related questions to general admissions. Nine times out of ten you will get wrong or incomplete answers. Communicate specifically with the music department, department heads and specific faculty. Talk to current students in the program if at all possible.</p>

<p>Read the undergrad handbook, department specific supplement for comparison in choosing degree types, requirements, and options and in comparing similar programs across different institutions.</p>

<p>DO NOT go into this with blinders on or misinformed.</p>

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<p>So true, Violadad. I know a young woman who was a fabulous trumpet player. She went off to a very well regarded LAC. There was exactly one faculty member/teacher in trumpet and she didn't like him. Home she came.</p>

<p>Since you probably don't have funds to make multiple visits to campuses, try to schedule an appointment with the flute faculty whereever you go. Make it clear to the person setting up the appointment that you're willing to wait around campus for a few hours in order to be able to meet them/him/her.</p>