A question from a student to parents that aren't her own

Parents Forum
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<p>I already play at a level VI at NYSSMA and scored very highly last June. I may not have private training, which admittedly sets me back, but I am pretty impressive for someone self-taught. As for private lessons, there is no possible way; I have been trying to cajole my parents into it since I was in ninth grade, but it is not in the budget and moreover, the closest tutor that I know of is 45 minutes from here and charges $50/hour. Unfortunately, sort of hard to do when you have no car or job. I have already contacted numerous music department heads specializing in flute, and none of them have yet returned my emails but I plan on calling them if they don't respond by mid-September.</p>

<p>So, see, I'm not as misinformed and naive as you think. I am determined to go into music somehow, and I have taken the appropriate steps forward to doing so. Just because one does not have private lessons does not mean he or she is doomed for eternity. =)</p>

82

<p>I did not say you were doomed, and wish you every chance of success. My intent was to make you aware of some of the realities.</p>

<p>Both my "kids" are recently degreed, in non mainstream fields. My son is a performing pro classical musician, my d active in a very specialized animal care field. I'm familiar with passions and will be the last to discourage a student from a pursuit as long as they are fully aware of what they are getting into, both short and long term. </p>

<p>Your earlier posts gave little indication of your level of training and proficiency. I feel a bit better about your chances of success in being accepted in an auditon based general or music ed program, but please realize ANY audition based admit is a crapshoot. The same student can be accepted at Juilliard, yet bomb an audition at Potsdam. It happens due to illness, bad day, great competition field, number of instrumental openings, or whim of the gods.</p>

<p>Look into local resources... recent grads, semi-retired or retired pros or educators. Put an ad in Craiglist for instruction. Barter services, housecleaning or babysitting if you have to for lessons. Musicians tend to be pretty willing to help compatriots with the desire and potential to try. Almost any directed experienced teaching may well serve to assist in audition prep as opposed to self teaching. </p>

<p>Your school selection is all over the board, and a vast number are not schools normally on lists for music pursuit at the undergrad degree level, be it performance, ed, or general, or music academic disciplines. Some of those programs may be enough to satisfy those wishing an avocational pursuit, but I think that's not what you were looking for.</p>

<p>I realize your financial dilema, and urge you to include a school like Berea, even if it means less or no music.</p>

<p>I read your initial thread when posted, and could really offer nothing until you emphasized your desire to pursue music. If biology was your intended pursuit, I would have nothing to offer; I bow to the expertise of many posters here with more knowledge of merit aid, academically tiered scholarships, and the best choices for purely academic pursuits. But quite frankly, some of the advice and suggestions for music were downright wrong, or based on lack of knowledge of the intracies of audition based music admissions.</p>

<p>If I did you a disservice or offended you, please say so and I'll post no more to this thread.</p>

<p>Again, you have my best wishes for every chance of success.</p>

83

<p>Oh, no, not at all! It wasn't my intention to say that you had offended or disserviced me by any means! I am very, very glad that you are so interested in helping me to succeed. The "doom" thing was absolute sarcasm, and I seem to be wording things continually improperly. You have helped a tremendous amount, and for that, I am thankful. Believe me. I appreciate everything you have done so far to help me, and you have cleared up many points that I was hesitant about when it comes to music as a degree, as well as making me realize that it isn't going to be so easy as I had hoped.</p>

<p>You have helped me, not hurt me. I would be quite honoured you would continue to assist my pursuits.</p>

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<p>My pleasure. I'll do what I can, but please consider all advice, as my knowledge is discipline specific and others have far more insight on financial aid and academic pursuits.</p>

85

<p>Violadad, you are giving excellent advice. </p>

<p>Skullduggery,
I do understand the rural area I gather you are from, but maybe you could work having someone coach you once a month instead of weekly (this should help with transportation and finances). Is there someone else in your school in a similar situation? Maybe you could carpool. It is important to have someone different/new hear you objectively.</p>

<p>I wonder if you could get a college student to work with you to prepare for auditions? Consider contacting Skidmore, St. Rose or UAlbany to see if anyone would be interested, especially if they are from your general area (they have to go home sometime). Also, contact the community colleges (ACC, or especially SCCC-their music program is especially good). </p>

<p>Right now, though, read up on the college websites telling you what they want to hear for auditions. They tend to be very specific for flute. You will need original copies of the music for auditions (one for you, one for the person who will hear you), just like NYSSMA. </p>

<p>Keep us updated!</p>

86

<p>Thanks for the clarification, violadad. I was hoping that there was a way that skullduggery could audition once in place in order to avoid the travel necessary to audition at every school to which she applies.</p>

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<p>pageturner, thank you. As are you.</p>

<p>mafool, it may save initial travel costs to an audition, but many use the audition day to view dorms, school in general, performance facilities, schedule trial lessons. But it may also result in an additional semester or year to fulfill new degree requirements.</p>

<p>Music ed curriculm is heavily sequenced and structured, with prereq A needed for course B. These are normally offered sequential semesters, and given the small nature of many programs, may only have one class time offering, not multiple time options for the same course.</p>

<p>Some mandated requirements are offered only once an academic year. If undeclared in year 1, it will limit course selection as many mus ed courses are open to majors only. </p>

<p>If OP plans to go this route, year 1 should be used to schedule as many academically required general couses out of the way as possible. It's also adviseable to discuss this with a music admissions officer or mus ed department head at each school prior to proceeding blindly. Kids do change majors, but specific curriculum requirements often add time and expense.</p>

<p>It's a potentially viable back door, but may well add to the overall costs.</p>

88

<p>
[quote]
From the sound of it, music ed appears to be the most steady option,

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Please, please, please do NOT go into music ed if you do not love to teach children. It is not a better paying substitute for performance. The music ed curriculum is very structured towards teaching and that is what you will be qualified to do when you graduate. We have experience with teachers who just did it as a backup and it was not good for anyone.</p>

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<p><a href="I%20have%20wanted%20to%20go%20to%20PSU%20since%20I%20was%20three,%20if%20that%20gives%20you%20any%20sort%20of%20picture,%20and%20upon%20visiting%20seemed%20the%20perfect%20atmosphere%20for%20me.">quote</a>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>S1 only wanted to go to PSU and did go. Was very involved with Blue Band, jazz band, orchestra and conducting without being a music major. There are opportunities, depending on what your final goals are. He plays in the community while working during the day. He did not want the life of a performance major and no way was going to be a teacher. You can play music as an avocation not a vocation. You can pursue a major that will enable employment while keeping up in music if you pick the right school. </p>

<p>Even as a music major, from any good university you still have that bachelors degree that is similar to any other BA. You can go into entry level jobs that do not require specific certifications and many music majors go on to other advanced degrees including law and medicine. There are a lot of options to stay in music.</p>

90

<p>Occasionally, there are players so gifted that their talent supercedes their lack of training or lessons. This is a very rare musician, indeed, although they do exist, and we have heard about music schools "discovering" someone who has that rare, innate talent. Mostly though, the competition for audition based programs is incredibly intense, and most every student at auditions will be very well trained, particularly for more elite programs. I have heard about an occasional audition (for an instrument without a pre-screen) where there is a student auditioning who is completely over his/her head, playing repertoire far beneath the competition. Although I don't know NYSSMA, your achievement there certainly speaks to a higher level than a totally untrained musician.</p>

<p>I don't agree with anyone suggesting music ed as a "safety" to a performance degree. You either want to perform music more than anything in the world, or you want to teach. The two are nearly mutually exclusive at this stage (although within a career, musicians often do both, but private teaching doesn't require a music ed degree). Neither is 'better" than the other, but the types of students who choose each are usually quite clear about their goals and objectives.</p>

<p>Of course, there are always non audition based BA programs, where you could study music within a broader liberal arts curriculum</p>

<p>Best of luck, whatever you decide!</p>

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<p>-Allmusic- wrote:

[quote]
I don't agree with anyone suggesting music ed as a "safety" to a performance degree. You either want to perform music more than anything in the world, or you want to teach. The two are nearly mutually exclusive at this stage (although within a career, musicians often do both, but private teaching doesn't require a music ed degree). Neither is 'better" than the other, but the types of students who choose each are usually quite clear about their goals and objectives.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Having a son who's been there, done that, matriculated for two and only got one t-shirt, I have some comments and observations. Admittedly, I'm still straddling the fence here.</p>

<p>In many instances, parents trying to counsel their own, or the students themselves don't know the difference.</p>

<p>Even if your kid has had high level training, top private instruction, quality ensemble participation and some intense audition based summer immersion experiences, most parents don't know how to assess a student's talent and level across a larger base of equally and more talented peers and their chances for a performance based career. Many neophyte parents and students see an All-State selection and a hs principal chair as the basis of a performance career. The reality is that a good part of your competition never is at AllState. They are far beyond that, not in age, but in level of talent.</p>

<p>Students themselves are unsure. Many don't know the differences between the programs. They don't their drive, their level OR their potential. Some are worried about putting bread on the table long term. Some don't care if they have a table, or bread, as long as they can play music.</p>

<p>No one is cast in the same mold. </p>

<p>Gc's are of no help when it comes to performance based programs, and most don't have a clue beyond their state flagship or teachers college as to what programs are out there that consistently produce top flight nationally sought after music educators.</p>

<p>The skill sets required for both career paths differ.</p>

<p>Performance requires technical and artistic mastery of an instrument (voice is an instrument), and advanced knowledge of music theory, history and composition and basic piano/keyboard skills.</p>

<p>Music education requires a high level of proficiency on an instrument, a basic/rudimentary skill level across many instruments, a working knowledge of music theory, history, basic composition and conducting. Additionally, applied working knowledge of general and music specific teaching philosophy techiques and psychology, and state mandated academic requirements in english, history, math and science/health.</p>

<p>Performance trains you to be an artist. Mus ed trains you to be a teacher in a k-12 classroom setting and all that that entails. </p>

<p>Even in structured dual degree five year performance/ed programs, the attrition rate is high. Performers drop the ed, the educators drop the performance. It took my son four and a half years to realize he did not want to teach in public schools. </p>

<p>The kids that knew up front were in the specific seperate four year programs, but there were those that changed major from performance to ed, and vice versa. Some switched to music management or music academic pursuits. Some left music entirely.</p>

<p>It is not unheard of to change majors in college, but it is far easier to transfer out of a performance program than into one.</p>

<p>As neophyte non musical parents, we steered him in the performance/ed direction, as he had a love and talent for both, but did not insist on a dual degree approach. </p>

<p>If you have the talent, drive and are aware of the chances and the financial potential, go for it, and give performance your best shot, but you need to be aware of the consequences.</p>

<p>Our son knew his safety net consisted of a roof and food if he needs it.</p>

<p>It took my son four and a half years in a five year program
in a top flight conservatory program that also has a national reputation for producing exceptional music educators to figure out that he did not want to teach in the public schools. Performance drives him, it's that simple, but he is also a gifted teacher, but prefers to teach in studio and small class settings.</p>

<p>It was not a waste. He realized what he did NOT want to do.</p>

<p>Often overlooked is the category of music pedagogy, which is the training to teach music at the studio level. I would advise performers to at least investigate those options, at least as electives, although there are specific performance/pedagogy offerings as dual majors.</p>

<p>It's important to draw the distinction between achieving certification to teach music in a public school system and teaching in studio settings, small groups or privately.</p>

<p>It's been said some of the worst educators are failed performers.</p>

<p>It's also true that some of the best performers are the worst teachers. </p>

<p>Most of the exceptional ones have had their feet both on stage and in the classroom.</p>

<p>Just my $.02.</p>

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<p>Excellent point about the student drive- kids won't know whether they have it until they are well into the program (sometimes not until they are well into their graduate career, or even later, as in my case). Also, thank you for pointing out that voice is an instrument. Every year in September, I have a class discussion in Music Theory on: "All singers are musicians; all musicians are singers."
You should hear the arguments I get at first!</p>

<p>Now, the major point that seems to be becoming a difficulty: Should a person who wants to perform music look into Music Education?</p>

<p>They aren't mutually exclusive. If you like kids, and you like music, and you like learning, and you like teaching, think about becoming a music teacher. Go to school where there is a Music Ed program so you have the opportunity. Take a few classes, see if it's for you. Generally, by the time you have to go out and student teach, you know what you are in for. You've had so many hours of observation, you will know that it isn't some glorified performance job. If you don't like it by then? No, the time isn't wasted. Education never is. Would it have been better to get a BA in music and not get a teaching certificate or get a BS or BM in music and have that certificate, even if you don't want to teach (or at least, right away).</p>

<p>I had NO desire to teach when I graduated from both my bachelors and masters programs (performance). I had to take jobs out of my field to make a living, (and my masters degree was from an Ivy, so, there! to the CC kids, it's not all that!). I went back to school for certification 10 years later, and boy, did I wish I had completed those credits back then! We had that 4 1/2 year program for performance and education in my undergraduate school, but I wasn't interested. </p>

<p>And, I am now one of those teachers who both performs and is a good teacher, I promise you. It can be done.</p>

<p>We don't seem too have this same problem with math or social studies teachers, do we?</p>

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<p>I know I'm late to this discussion, but I would like to step back and suggest some general process suggestions. Obviously, building up the SAT as much as possible will help. But then I suggest</p>

<ol>
<li> Find a complete list of schools that claim that they fully meet financial need. Apply to as many as seem plausible (getting fee waivers, of course).</li>
</ol>

<p>These schools tend to be among the most selective. At the other end of the scale, I would do an extensive search of small colleges that are not particularly selective. Some of these give full tuition to people with Skull's stats. (Unfortunately, the only way to find out is to look at each website, one by one). You'd still have to figure out a way to handle room, board, books, etc. But while not easy, that might be plausible.</p>

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<p>Even though it's likely that the OP would qualify for significant need-based aid, it might be good to look at some schools where she would qualify for merit money as well, in case that "magic" FA math catches her in a loophole. Maybe she should check out the "Merit Money fpr B Students" Thread, as well as the other merit money threads.</p>

<p>OP:
Do you feel you HAVE TO, at this point, do music vocationally, or would you be content persuing another field while participating avocationally but substantially?</p>

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<p>EMM1 -- I don't know if you noticed, but later in the thread I updated that list quite a bit, and expand upon it significantly, as my grades and SAT are not nearly as good as they should be. Considering aid and the likes, I still think that I might have a chance at Skidmore and Syracuse for in-state, but other than that? Nyeh, I'm not really sure. People have suggested Cornell and Vassar, which I did add, and a Vassar student said that she has encountered many that had lower high school stats than myself...but I'm still wary. Boston U also meets almost the entire cost for a little bit less than half of the students in my GPA/SAT range, so if I improve both of them, I have a good chance there as well. I've been doing a lot of research over the past few days and most of these schools cover my needs almost entirely...from here, it's just a game of writing the best essays that I can and gaining some awesome recs, because my irresponsibility freshman year and bad luck of being ill on SAT day are for now out of my hands.</p>

<p>Question_Quest -- I don't have to do it vocationally. I have this bad habit of choking at auditions, anyway. But even if I pursue music avocationally, I still need at least an intermediate level flute (this according to the flute tutors at both Syracuse and Penn State, the only ones whom have responded to me so far). Still, they are far cheaper than pros.</p>

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<p>Skullduggery, wise people before me have suggested that if you can see yourself doing anything other than performance that you consider it. Performance can be an avocation with many wonderful opportunities in the community. If you live and breath performance then that is all that will do . If you love teaching children, go into ed. But if any other subjects attract you consider music as an avocation and find a school that will enable and encourage non-majors. They are out there. </p>

<p>In any case you do need a decent instrument to do any of the above. Have you tried connecting with the HS band director? He/She may have connections into used instruments that can still be very good. Our HS band also has loaners and some funding available for students. Are you in the band? Have you checked what can be done with the band or music boosters?</p>

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<p>Skidmore doesn't guarantee to meet full need--CB.com says 88% on average. So you may well be gapped.</p>

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<p>This is a list of colleges that pledge to meet full need. The only one that is clearly within range for the OP is Beloit, but I don't know if she wants to go to Wisconsin. </p>

<ul>
<li>Amherst College

<ul>
<li>Beloit College</li>
<li>Boston College</li>
<li>Bowdoin College</li>
<li>Brandeis University</li>
<li>Brown University</li>
<li>California Institute of Technology</li>
<li>Claremont McKenna College</li>
<li>Columbia University</li>
<li>Cornell University</li>
<li>Cooper Union</li>
<li>Dartmouth College</li>
<li>Davidson College</li>
<li>Duke University</li>
<li>Emory University [2]</li>
<li>Georgetown University</li>
<li>Grinnell College</li>
<li>Harvard University</li>
<li>Haverford College</li>
<li>Massachusetts Institute of Technology</li>
<li>Middlebury College</li>
<li>Northwestern University</li>
<li>Pomona College</li>
<li>Princeton University</li>
<li>Rice University [3]</li>
<li>Stanford University</li>
<li>Swarthmore College</li>
<li>University of Chicago</li>
<li>University of Notre Dame</li>
<li>University of Pennsylvania</li>
<li>University of Richmond</li>
<li>University of Virginia [4]</li>
<li>Vassar College [5]</li>
<li>Vanderbilt University</li>
<li>Wake Forest University</li>
<li>Wellesley College</li>
<li>Wesleyan University</li>
<li>Williams College</li>
<li>Yale University</li>
</ul></li>
</ul>

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<p>OP, to take mafool's suggestion a bit further, take a look at
the Brookyn College Conservatory of Music
Brooklyn</a> College Conservatory of Music</p>

<p>This is part of the CUNY system, and will allow a BA entrance with a later BM audition based admit into a performance, music ed, or other music undergrad discipline.</p>

<p>It might be an option, and is a true musical safety, a rare bird.</p>

<p>It does not solve a housing issue, and is not a typical four year program, although it is a four year conservatory program, culminating in a BM.</p>

<p>It will not allow you to explore academic areas beyond music but this may be solved with CUNY cross registration. I do not know enough about CUNY's in general to elaborate.</p>

<p>The faculty has some outstanding names, and many populate faculty lists such as Yale SOM, Purchase, MSM, Hartt, Julliard.</p>

<p>You could well pay more for private instruction annually than the cost of the four year tuition.</p>

<p>There are music options out there should you feel compelled to follow them.</p>

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<p>Skullduggery,
What is your experience so far with music theory? I ask because it sounds like your music education so far has been in school band. If you haven't had much theory, you should look at some sample AP Music Theory exams from the CB AP Central website, as that will give you an indication of the difficulty level of a first-year theory course (as well as let you see if it is a subject you would like to study). </p>

<p>I don't mean to discourage you - but I've known several aspiring musicians who were blindsided by theory when they got to college. Do you think your SAT math score really reflects your math ability, or do you attribute the score to illness on test day? In my admittedly limited experience, students who do well in music theory are also strong in math.</p>

<p>I considered a music performance major myself many years ago but ended up taking a different path......I must admit to occasional regrets, but I have had many opportunities to be involved in music over the years. </p>

<p>You've received some good advice from other posters. Good luck!</p>