Advice for son who does not care about grades

Parents Forum
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<p>Colleges will tend to accept kids that “fit” their school.</p>

<p>You are worried that your kid’s profile will not be accepted by MIT.</p>

<p>There is only one way to find out: apply. You can try to interest him in MIT, take him on a visit, hope that the kid changes his own profile (which he may do on his own.)</p>

<p>When MIT decides, only then will you have you answer.</p>

<p>In which case you will both be relieved that you and he have other schools on his application list that may offer a better “fit” for his profile than MIT appears to be.</p>

<p>Cal Tech is a good school . . . so is Harvey Mudd, which seems to cultivate the quirky.</p>

<p>Kei</p>

<p>P.S. So relax . . . MIT can be a long shot for many, even geniuses (they can’t accept EVERY brilliant student that applies), and MIT will either want him because of his excellence in M/S or not, but there is little you can do to make your kid change his profile: he is who he is . . . and you sound like a fortunate parent.</p>

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<p>Kei, thank you. You are absolutely right…I am a very fortunate parent; he is an extremely good kid. That explains why I want to help make his dreams of going to MIT come true.</p>

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<p>If he has participated in MOSP, he is very impressive. It is possible that his grades in English reflect a very common trait among boys: reading for the surface narrative, the plot, rather than character, mood, scene, allusion, and more generally, style. That would describe my S. As for history, it may be that the way it is being taught is not very exciting and too fact-heavy. My Ss did have some great teachers who encouraged discussion with diverse viewpoints and required research papers. If he can maintain Bx and B+s in these subjects, you should not worry too much, as long as he is putting in the effort</p>

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<p>bogibogi and marite: my son did NOT graduate from his high school. They declined to give him a diploma. He was a high school dropout :wink: He does, however, have an MIT degree, now, which I believe more than makes up for it.</p>

<p>Oh, and BB, there’s an MIT summer program for talented math students, I can’t remember the name of it right now, but someone will–perhaps you should check that out for next year?</p>

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<p>Dmd:</p>

<p>I’d forgotten that bit. My apologies.<br>
I think that bookworm’s son fulfilled his high school graduation requirements while a freshman in college; he needed the fourth year of English. My S doubled up on English as a junior, so he got his diploma before going off to college.</p>

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<p>My daughter graduated a year early as well, an is a sophomore at WUSTL. She had to take some classes during the summer, as well as on-line classes in order to fulfill her HS graduation requirements (total # of credits, etc). Every state and every school district is different, so you’d have to check with your school to see what can be done.</p>

<p>The HS diploma is not essential for MIT and some other schools (as demonstrated by DMD77’s son ;)), but having one opens many more options, in case MIT does not work out.</p>

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<p>"Oh, and BB, there’s an MIT summer program for talented math students, I can’t remember the name of it right now, but someone will–perhaps you should check that out for next year? "
Here is the website for Stanford’s summer program for mathematically talented HS students -[sorry I don’t have the info for the MIT program, but the Stanford one is also excellent!]
deadline is in 2 weeks!</p>

<p>Stanford University Mathematics Camp
July 11 - August 7, 2010 </p>

<p>Who is SUMaC designed for?</p>

<p>SUMaC is designed for high school students who will be juniors and seniors in the fall, who have exceptional interest and ability in mathematics. SUMaC is for those who seek to be challenged in mathematics and those who would enjoy four weeks of intensive, in-depth, mathematical pursuits. SUMaC provides an environment that fosters social and intellectual development centered on the study and enjoyment of mathematics.</p>

<p>[SUMaC</a> 2010 Home Page](<a href=“http://math.stanford.edu/sumac/]SUMaC”>http://math.stanford.edu/sumac/)</p>

<p>SUMaC Goals</p>

<ul>
<li>To bring mathematically talented and motivated high-school students from across the United States, and from around the world, to Stanford University for four weeks of serious mathematical pursuits.

<ul>
<li>To provide access for these students to advanced topics in mathematics, in a way that is fun and interesting.</li>
<li>To lead these students through topics that are of great significance in the historical development of mathematics, that are important to current lines of mathematical research, and that have applications in the sciences.</li>
<li>To provide a friendly social environment for interaction between SUMaC participants and Stanford Mathematics Department faculty and students.</li>
</ul></li>
</ul>

<p>SUMaC Includes</p>

<ul>
<li>An intensive course in higher mathematics.

<ul>
<li>A guided research project that allows students to individually pursue a focused area of interest, related to the course.</li>
<li>A guest lecture series covering a range of topics, given by internationally-known research mathematicians.</li>
<li>Group problem-solving sessions and individual tutoring.</li>
<li>Social events and outings.</li>
<li>On-campus housing and dining, plus access to campus athletic and library facilities</li>
</ul></li>
</ul>

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<p>[MIT</a> Mathematics | RSI](<a href=“http://www-math.mit.edu/news/summer/rsi.html]MIT”>http://www-math.mit.edu/news/summer/rsi.html)
RSI is very hard to get into, but it is very prestigious, and it’s free.</p>

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<p>Thanks everyone for all the useful information. Honestly, my son finds many of his classes to be a waste of time and we have considered homeschooling him. If he could go to college sooner, that may be a better option as he may run out of science and math courses next year. Do you apply during regular decision? Did you run into any problems with the age difference? </p>

<p>RSI is definitely a goal for him. We know that it is extremely competitive, so we will be keeping our fingers crossed when he applies next year. His immediate goal is to qualify for MOSP again this summer and hopefully be invited to participate in the Computer Science camp as well.</p>

<p>Thanks again for sharing.</p>

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<p>bogibogi: I sent you a PM.</p>

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<p>BB: many colleges accept students before “normal” high school graduation. Others require an HS diploma. If you google “list early entrance colleges” you’ll get a list of them–at least that’s what I did. Simon’s Rock is one that accepts students after tenth grade. </p>

<p>For my son, who hated high school and thought it was a terrible waste of time, going to college early was an excellent choice. I think if I’d homeschooled him, though, we’d have ended up hating each other.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Some realism is in order as to how much that means. </p>

<p>There are competitions, and competitions. Top 10 could be nice but inconsequential, or a huge accomplishment, depending on which contests you have in mind. 8th-10th grade results are not indicative of what happens in the contest for the bigger prizes, which is generally between 11-12th graders, many of whom are children of math professors, homeschoolers with unlimited time to prepare for contests, child prodigies, and other categories that seem to spring out of the woodwork as time and age start to lay out the cards. Having a kid who is smart and mathy and is a genius by local standards through age 15 is not by itself that rare.</p>

<p>Also, the AMC competition credentials have been greatly diluted in recent years. The number of students admitted to the upper levels of the national contest (qualification for the written olympiad, or for IMO training camp selection) is several times higher than it used to be, and a number of “softer” qualification paths have been established. There used to be a handful of perfect scores in the world each year on the first-round exams; now there are hundreds each year, with about 60 of those in the USA.</p>

<p>The selectivity tiers where the number of slots has stayed the same over time are:</p>

<p>-US team to the international olympiad: 6 per year
-Designated “winners” of the USAMO: the top 12
-Top 24 of USAMO (winners plus honorable mention)</p>

<p>Qualification for the summer IMO training camp has become a complicated matter depending on calendar year, grade level, and one’s gender, but for 11-12th grade males it remains extremely selective and may be essentially the same as making the upper 24 on the USAMO. Or top 12 for seniors and top 24 for juniors, you would have to check the details year by year.</p>

<p>As far as I know, there is no other US national high school math contests whose maximum level of selection is anywhere near the above categories. This means that someone in the top 10 of these “alternative” competitions might only be in the top few hundred nationally. There are also huge databases of problems available that make it less of talent indicator, and more a sign of willingness to prepare, if a given student reaches the upper levels below the very top.</p>

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</p>

<p>That’s rather patronizing, in part because it mostly disregards the content of post #1. </p>

<p>If you look up “Math Olympiad Summer Program” or “perfect score on AMC competition” you will see that, at least as measured twice or more in the 8th-10th grade, this student was in the top 30-60 nationally (and possibly an even smaller number) of math competition aficionados of his age. If that level of prowess continues, and even if it drops somewhat, it is highly coveted by tech schools below the rank of MIT and Caltech. Top shelf math students are not all that common in their applicant pools and pretty rare in their matriculant population, the top 150 or so students having been skimmed off by upper schools, state universities, or big scholarship offers. For these universities, it is also very desirable to raise their performance in the national Putnam math competition, because this is what draws other math students and can help the schools market themselves regionally and nationally. </p>

<p>Math specialist with low grades in English is a common and often-forgiven profile at engineering schools. Somebody who tops olympiads and is not a recent immigrant will generally have near-perfect SAT scores and a slate of flawless AP results, regardless of grades attained in humanities classes, and engineering admission is largely score-based. Absent alarmingly low grades, a strong (national top 100) mathematician as described in post #1 is either a shoe-in or will be very seriously considered for admission at any tech school below the level of Carnegie-Mellon, is a contender at Duke engineering school, RPI admission is extremely likely. The top dogs like MIT and Caltech may have a different view, but Purdue and Clemson should be considered safeties or doormats for such a candidate.</p>

<p>It doesn’t play well with the patronizing “learn from mistakes” narrative, but the reality is that elite math competition credentials are a currency that can be cashed in at many, many universities including just about any place below the 2-4 best tech schools. Grades are not as important as many here seem to think, given test scores and success by difficult national metrics.</p>

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<p>Can OP’s son take classes at a local college? My S dual-enrolled at local college starting in 9th grade, for math, then other courses like Latin, econ, …Even tho a tier 4 (or a tier 5, if that exists), he liked the college atmosphere. He hated the busy work, the team projects, and the artsy posters at HS.</p>

<p>Not graduating HS didn’t hurt him at the tech schools. CMU states on their brochure that HS juniors, who have exhausted HS courses, encouraged to apply.</p>

<p>Humanity courses at the tech schools are appealing to these math/science types. They offer scientific writing, history of science, scifi writing, etc.</p>

<p>I’d definitely encourage your son to apply for summer programs at MIT, Stanford, Caltech.</p>

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<p>you are very lucky to have a son who is so passionate about something and who, despite a lack of interest, is able to maintain Bs in the other subjects. You are letting your obsession with MIT color your view of your son. Even with the best of credentials he might not get in. He will find a great school and make friends! There will be plenty of math nerds at schools everywhere. I was really shocked when I got to the post where you put in his grades and said that he has As in the APs he’s interested in and Bs elsewhere. I thought he was in a much tougher position.</p>

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<p>“You are letting your obsession with MIT color your view of your son”</p>

<p>My view of my son: He is honest, caring, sweet, gentle, quirky, smart, etc. He is an all around great kid whom any parent would be blessed to have.</p>

<p>He has struggled through elementary/middle school and we finally feel like he has discovered his passions and has some goals for himself. One major goal being MIT. My original post was my way of soliciting advice/insight that would let me know whether he is on the right path. I understand that MIT is not a guarantee for anyone. But is it “obsessive” of me to try to help him increase his odds?</p>

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<p>My concern would not be if kid gets accepted or not, he will get accepted somewhere. My concern would be the attitude adjustment to maintain reasonable GPA at college.</p>

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<p>Bookworm, state minimum age requirements prevented him from taking classes at our local college. He also hates “the busy work, the team projects, and the artsy posters at HS”. Several posters have opened my eyes to early graduation, so that will be something that I will be looking into. Thanks.</p>

<p>Siserune, you seem to be very knowledgeable about the goings-on in the math world so I really appreciate your input. Thank you.</p>

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<p>" He also hates “the busy work, the team projects, and the artsy posters at HS”</p>

<p>He’ll also have to do group projects in college. Even at the top colleges, there will be some students who slack or are otherwise difficult to work with on team projects. That alo will be true in the work world.</p>

<p>In college, there also will be assignments that won’t be to his liking. This even will be true if he goes to MIT.</p>

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<p>A couple of thoughts as I have skimmed this thread… </p>

<p>He may not care as much right now about grades during sophomore year as he will by next fall. I think kids in their second year of high school sometimes reach a point where they have a bit of a lull in attitude - college still seems far off. I saw this happen with both of my sons, but their attitudes shifted by beginning of Jr. Year. Freshman year is full of adapting to high school life, Sophomore year they settle in, but by Jr. year they begin to be unindated with mailings from colleges, testing, guidance counselors, etc. All at once, they get hit in the face with making the college plans real. That may be enough for your son to sit up and take notice and assess where he is, where he wants to be, and what he needs to do to get there. </p>

<p>While grades are important, our high school principal has emphasized that most schools will look at the standardized testing more closely than the actual gpa as schools and grading practices vary so much nationwide. If he does well on the English, Reading, (and writing assessment if taking the ACT), that may overshadow the grades. I agree it is a fine line between encouraging and nagging sometimes. Take a deep breath, and try to differentiate what he hears from you - I have been told that my “encouraging” sounds like nagging to my kids. Ha! Whodda thunk! </p>

<p>While visiting with admissions is a great idea, another approach might be to connect him with a recent grad or current student who could emphasize the importance of good writing skills, even for majors within the math department. Which leads me to another thought: could your son be bored in these non-math classes? I have to wonder if he is being challenged in them. If he can somehow relate these other class projects and assignments to apply to his mathematical interests, it might make them more palatable.</p>

<p>My best wishes to your son - he obviously has a great support system!</p>