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hmmm, interesting. i never said that all URMs work hard. maybe you should reread my post. if i said "all URMs work hard," then your comment would have been pertinent. But because i only spoke to "URMs who work their ass off" (direct quote from my post) i did not "assume otherwise."
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I think a lot of people typically assume that URMs admitted to prestigious schools didn't work as hard as non-URMs, or that the majority of them benefited from AA and would not have gotten in otherwise.</p>
<p>When someone says something to the contrary, suddenly they're "categorizing." Somehow, saying that URMs are lazy or that they benefited from AA is not categorizing...</p>
<p>IMO, AA gives the allusion that all minorities live tough lives, both in terms of socio and economic well being. On the other hand AA states all whites live good lives in both social and economic. This is wrong. I don't care what ethnic background they are, if a student comes from a troubled area and is able to get good grades and a good ACT/SAT, yeah, give them credit. But for an affulent minority to get in simply because of the college sterotype that all minorities face a troubled situtation, is ludacris.</p>
<p>To just base AA on an economic factor is still in essence a disadvantage to minorities. If a school is just focused on giving the edge to poor people then it is the poor whites who would benefit the most. To be poor sucks, to be black AND poor sucks even more. And to ignore the race of an applicant because we live in a so-called equal country is just ignorant. Race still matters despite what people say.</p>
<p>All Im saying is yes AA should be regulated so that its not these "rich" black kids who are 3rd gen students dont benefit. But there needs to be factors like economic class, whether or not the student is a 1st gen college student, among other things. But race still needs to involved because this is not a color-blind country and we cant try and start that theme in college admissions. BTW alot of the Asians who attend these colleges are children of Korean, Japanese, and Vietnamese citizens who left their countries during wars. And most of them were professionals like doctors,engineers, etc. therefore they werent exactly uneducated. So the Asian analogy doesnt make sense unless you are talking about the Chinese-Asians from way back then</p>
<p>firebird's the only person on this board making any sense. kinglin seems to be hanging on to the idea that adcoms are so stupid that they can't tell when a black kid is truly disadvantaged and when he's actually quite well-off.</p>
<p>Well . . .i'm dropping that analogy, but yes, i was talking about the chinese americans from way back, as I clarified in an earlier post. I am curious what disadvantages you think black people have by mereley being black? Now, this of course depends on the place where you live. I live in Santa Monica, affectionately called "The Peoples Republic of Santa Monica" because it is so incredibly liberal. I also think that the stigma of being a "racist" is so incredibly negative that no one dare express their racist opinions publicly anymore. It has become "unfashionable", and people who do are shunned. While people might harbor their own personal prejudices, I think it is more than balanced out by all the advantages given to minorities in their high school preparation by mereley being just minorities. NASA Sharp is a NASA internship program for women and minorities. There are numerous summer camps for minorities only. The fact of the matter is, being black HELPS you rack up accomplishments in high school because you are taken out of the competition and placed in your own special category. </p>
<p>Kinglin: I agree with you completely. The very basis of AA is racist. Stereotyping all minorities in a category and saying "we have lower standards for you because you ALL are poor" is very racist.</p>
<p>Firebird74t: I'm pretty sure being white and poor sucks too. Society looks down on "white trash" probably even more since they don't have 200 years of oppression etc. as an excuse.</p>
<p>As a white boy living in a very liberal and accepting city, maybe I don't have the kind of perspective you do Firebird74t. I invite you to tell me how exactly you have been discriminated against because you were black? Maybe if you live in rural Georgia its different. The way I see it, any form of educated society so frowns upon that type of action that it doesn't harm you. I think the bigots have moved on to bigger and greater things, like hating gays.</p>
Or maybe if you live in suburban Ohio or suburban Illinois it is different, too. I have been racially profiled, pulled over while driving (for no reason), watched while in stores, called racial slurs, etc. And as I said, this was not in some hick town of the Deep South. It occurred in suburban America...</p>
<p>While I sympathize with you and don't agree at all with those actions, I don't see any reason why that would interfere with your education. Being pulled over, or watched while you were in stores does not affect the grades you get in your class. I should have clarified my question: How have you been discriminated against that affected your chances to do well in school. As for the racial slurs, I am half Jewish, and in addition to the anti-hispanic and black writing on our school walls this year, there was also anti-semitic writing on the wall of a Jewish teacher. None of the Jewish students let it get to them, and while it was moderatley disrupting, it didn't affect my grades or EC's in the least.</p>
<p>Teachers at my school made me get more documentation and even a signed letter from my mom just so I could take an IB class, my GC said go to comm. college, she didnt reccomend it as an option she suggested I do it, when on the other hand she was telling my friend, who was white, to apply to all the schools even though their stats were lower than mine, how about I was suspened for four days for getting in a fight even though the usual punshment for a kids first offense is like 1 day and detention. How about when I miss school the attendance office automatically gives me a detention slip even though kids are supposed to get 2 days to clear absences. How about when I talked to the Career Advisor in myschool as a freshman and asked, "what do I have to do to get into UVA?" she got mad at me and said dont set your bar so high because all it will leave you is disapointment. I thought these advisors were supposed to make you shoot for the best, she didnt even know me. Is that enough for you dolitwak or do you want more?</p>
this is easy to answer too. from the time i was a little girl up until the beginning of senior year, teachers have always attempted to hold me back from honors and ap classes. when i was in the second grade they told my mom that i wasn't "socially ready" (even though i had numerous friends) for the gifted program. when i was in the 5th grade they told my dad that my grades (of all A+s) were not high enough to warrant putting me in a higher level math class. when i was in the 8th grade, they told me that "regular classes" would be more appropriate for my learning style. of course their bogus reasons were just excuses to hold me back. how would it look for a little black girl to be far ahead of all of her white peers. while you may argue that this is not true, during all of those instances where i was held back, i watched my white peers gain access to all of those advanced programs with ease. many of these same friends were less qualified than i. so, how can you tell me that discrimination had no impact on my educational opportunities and overall educational experience?</p>
<p>Hotpiece101:
I again sympathize with you but I must tell you a story of my own. My brother was denied admission into an advanced math class, and he was white. Often, these officers just want to discourage as many people as possible from applying, so they tell everyone they're not ready. The people that get in therefore, are not the ones who are the most qualified, but the ones who have parents in there lobbying or are the most persistent. In the case of my brother, he told my mother to stop fighting for him cause he really didn't care that much, and he didn't get in. I'm not saying you don't care about your education, I'm just saying there are other factors other than race, namely, a rather stupid educational bureaucracy that trys to throw obstacles in front of everyone, regardless of race.</p>
<p>Firebird74t:
I cannot verify the truth of what you are saying or argue against it without knowing you and your school. You should consider the possibility that it wasn't because you were black. But maybe your right, I have no way of knowing. However, your evidence is mostly someone discouraging you from aiming high because your black. Everyone encounters discouragement in their life no matter your race. I will agree however, that in terms of school bureacracy, white kids have it easier. I'm able to walk around during class without being stopped and almost all my teachers don't ask me why I was absent, assuming that it was for a good reason. However, fighting through mere educational bureaucracy should not get you extra points in college apps. While the college counselor who told you not to aim high is surely a dick, and I'm sorry, that doesn't mean you should walk into UVA because you've withstood a little verbal abuse. I've had two counselors in middle and high school and the first one was a total idiot, and the second one was great. A friend of mine, a white one, who also happens to be a literary genius in my opinion, (this kid reads joyce, faulkner and all the greats for fun and writes amazing essays about them), was stuck with this bad counselor, who encouraged him to not take extra classes at the community college, saying "why weren't the ones at our school enough". He threw every obstacle in front of this kid, and he still managed to fight through it. I think you need to face the facts that some of these counselors are just plain stupid to everyone no matter what race you are. But again, you may be right, and I have no idea about your real situation.</p>
um, dolitwak, that has nothing to do with it. this was an advanced math program that was open to all students. all we had to do was take a test and if we scored high enough on the test and our grades were deemed high enough, we were allowed to be in the class. basically what happened was that everyone who scored above a certain mark was allowed into the class. that is, everyone but me. even though i scored high enough, they said my grades (of all A+s as i said above) were not enough. so yeah it had to do with my being black.</p>
<p>No offense dolitwak, but your response is the exact problem. It is going on, I dont know what would convince you that there are still problems in the educational system that laws cant rectify. And anytime someone wants to use race as a basis as to why they encountered their problem there is someone that wants to say it could have happened to anyone when in reality it wouldnt. Lets go back to your response: "fighting through the ed. beaurocracy shouldnt earn you points on an app" - It doesnt, thats unconstitutional, and you also claim that because I withstood some verbal abuse I shouldnt just get to walk into UVA. See now youre using the idea of AA way too liberally. You asked if I have seen discrimination that affected my academics, I have. Im sure I could find someone with worse stories than that. Lets not forget I am in favor of economic-based AA but you cant act like everything is kosher and disregard race as a factor because race does affect peoples studies whether you believe it or not</p>
<p>There was also a grade cutoff in my brother's class that he met, but he was also denied. And he was a year ahead in math all through elementary school. I find that too often when bad things happen to minorities they automatically assume it's because they're a minority. You don't think that some of these things have happened to white people either? I sympathize with your situation and realize that it very well could have been racism. So are we supposed to excuse every black kid who doesn't take an honor class on the assumption that he wasn't allowed too? I think not. again, while your obstacle sounds like it could be racism, you should be aware that it happens to white kids also, and that our obstacles aren't considered in the admissions process.</p>
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again, while your obstacle sounds like it could be racism, you should be aware that it happens to white kids also, and that our obstacles aren't considered in the admissions process.
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i never said it didn't happen to white kids too. i just think that it happens to minorities in much higher numbers.
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I find that too often when bad things happen to minorities they automatically assume it's because they're a minority.
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i find that too often whenever a supposedly qualified white kid doesn't get into the school they want to, they blame it on minorities and aa. what about the legacies and the big donors and the candidates from underrepresented states...</p>
<p>I'll tell you, because they could be white and that kills his "AA is the reason I didnt get into college so we should wipe it out" and who is to say that if there wasnt AA you would have got into your dream school dolitwak. I mean did your rejection letter say: Dear Mr. X you cant come to our school because we gave it to some random URM who was uncompetitve. And how did I get rejected from a school whose stats I surpassed. Im supposed to be a shoe-in cause Im black right? Nope but you dont see me blaming people. I just know I should have worked harder and am going to get it together and move on.</p>
<p>this isn't a forum to discuss legacies or i would ***** about them too, lol. i have a friend who got accepted to the EXACT same colleges that I did, and then got into stanford cause she was a legacy. That ****ed me off a lot, but unfortunately, i believe the topic of this forum is "Affirmative Action just leads to more racism", not "Legacies are America's Aristocracy". Again, where I come from, it happens in equal numbers. Looking at it from my perspective, you have groups of blacks and latinos beating the hell out of each other, and then going and blaming it on the white kids, who didn't participate at all. They are constantly claiming injustice, when there really is no injustice ever done to them in our extremeley liberal school (95% democrat, republicans are practically ostracized by the teachers). They are now currently trying to oust our principle, (who i hate btw but still), from her office under the pretense that their rioting was her fault. Maybe your school is different and a lot more racist than mine, but from what I see, too often these claims of injustice are unfounded. I cannot judge your situation though, and therefore I think this argument is kinda pointless, lol.</p>
<p>You think i'm out to blame minorities for not getting into my dream college, when really, AA is only a small part of a very messed up college system, and I realize that.</p>
<p>Trust me I have met many ignorant black/hispanics but from that group of people there are many who do need the help AA extends them. Its true, I cant get you to think like me nor can you do the same but I know if I have experienced my problems in a community where there are many minorities, then imagine what it is like where they are less present. In a society like America's where we can say it is the most equal country in the world, it is kind of sad that people simply want to attack AA like its a real form of injustuce that is being done to people when there are other injustices that are more important in regards to race.</p>
<p>A country should not strive to fix things by making things more unequal in different ways. They should fix the problems at the bottom level instead of waiting until college and then just "understanding" the circumstances. It undermines our idea of equality. You can't compensate for injustice with more injustices. "Two wrongs don't make a right" applies perfectly here.</p>