<p>Granfallooner makes a good point when he says AA affects only a very small portion of minority populations and therefore does not generate much of a change in society. It would be more effective to improve inner-urban secondary schools where URMs are the majority, so that these people would grow up in an environment that would ENCOURAGE them to apply to good schools, not simply give them brownie points after they apply.</p>
<p>I find AA rather insulting b/c it implies that as a minority, I need special criteria for admission. Like I'm not good enough/ smart enough to be judged fairly.</p>
<p>You can make all the improvements in education that you want, but it doesn't change the people who go to that school. There is a large population of students in innercity/minority schools who feel that just because they are minorities that they can't take a normal route and have to resort to ilegal action in order to "suceed". Try being one of the kids who overcomes all that and actually does the right thing, its not easy and AA simply recognizes that your making strides in your community and as an indivual are trying to influence the other kids who took the other road to do better.</p>
<p>Granfalooner- that was to the post before yours. your argument makes sense- AA doesnt affect people to the extent that it is made out to be.</p>
<p>Man, every year when the rejections start rolling the AA flames shine brighter and brighter:P</p>
<p>Responding to the verrrrrry first post (oh so many pages ago), AA shouldn't exist just because you choose to make assumptions about the person based on it. It's kind of like if everyone says 'anyone who wears a pocket protector is a tool', ok then everyone should stop wearing them then because society says it's not cool? No, pocket protectors are handy gosh durn it!! (pats her own). The main issue with the people who hate AA is not AA, it's the person. There is an innate sense of entitlement w hen you say 'that minority took my spot'. </p>
<p>Stats are definetly not everything in admissions. If anything, they're just a benchmark to see if you're competent. I remember the year I applied on the MIT board there was a girl with a horrendous SAT score and pretty mediocre grades who got in. Everyone was absolutely outraged, 'AA, underqualified girl! maybe she's black too!'. No, she was a physics genius and had attended a prominent conference at MIT. You do NOT know everything about someone's application so you can NOT make assumptions on how qualified they are.</p>
<p>And finally AA is a very cheap reperation for all the suffering the people who qualify for it went through. Women have not had a voice for centuries and even know there is still a very visible 'glass ceiling'. Hispanics are even now not given the respect they deserve even though their hardworking ethic has provided cheap labour for YOUR benefit. Nobody picking fruit in California is exactly racking in the dough, YOU benefit by being able to buy cheap oranges. African Americans provided the foundation for this country to be built. America was considered impossible by Europeans until African Americans and their knowledge of livestock and agriculture made the land livable and provided free labour for centuries at the cost of their human dignity. I could go on and on about all the races covered by AA, but in short all of these people paid a BIG price to get where they are and are still feeling the affects and AA is a SMALL pittance compared to what they all deserve.</p>
<p>Now suck up your rejection at Harvard, go to UPenn and be successful, your life is far from over:P</p>
<p>I have attended school in the inner-city (Baltimore) and it seems that the one thing that I found that was a consisitent in students who went on to college was a motivation/inspiration to succeed from someone. The problem is that many of those kids are too busy focusing on the problems that white america has ignored to try and attend college. And unless you have motivation , as I did, or some athletic skill you are honestly screwed. I only spent about a year there and trust me had I stayed longer I would not be as optimistic for my future as I am. I agree with end3590 that AA trys to recognize some URMs struggles but in doing so it lets lawmakers/colleges feel that they are holding their end of the bargain in trying to get students out of their predicaments as inner-city youth</p>
<p>I agree with firebird ppl who just focus on the problems with white america are just wasting their time instead of focusing on whats is important, AA just helps to give those kids who do have the motivation the chance to excel even further.</p>
<p>Problems with white america . . .this makes me think of a very disturbing thing that happened at our school last year. We had a race riot between Hispanics and Blacks. It started out with only about 20 people, and then escalated to who knows how much. The exact stats are unknown as I was at an Orchestra competition and only heard about it through friends, but it was pretty big and made the news. The thing that was REALLY disturbing was what the "minority coalition" said about it. They said it was due to "Institutionalized Racism", saying they didn't have enough black and hispanic teachers at the school, etc. They blamed their beating each other up on the white man. I'm sorry, but, while possibly some of their circumstances were what they were because or our white ancestors, there is a certain point at which you take responsibility for yourself and quit blaming other people. I want to say I fully realize the obstacles that kids in inner city schools face. But blaming them on white america is just contributing to a vicious circle. The problems at that school are not caused by the white politicians, but by the gang members and unmotivated student body (very little of which is white) that attends them. </p>
<p>Addressing what Red_Dragone said: I saw a protest the other day of Hispanic kids who wanted some act, I think called the Dream Act, passed, which, from my understanding, would allow undocumented workers financial aid to go to college. At first, I was appalled that someone whose parents snuck into the country, and didn't even belong here would have the nerve to demand that they get a free ride from the government. But then my mother pointed something out to me. Those kids didn't ask their parents to hop the border, why should they have to pay the consequences by not going to college? It's the same with AA. The descendants of slave owners didn't ask their parents to buy slaves, but now they are burdened with AA? Its not fair to punish the kids for the errors of the parent. Also, frankly, your MIT genius thing is few and far between, and I can tell you of a bunch of people who don't deserve to be where they are. And if you were one of us rejected kids you would probably feel very differently if 4 years of working hard went down the drain because of race in a country that calls itself a meritocracy.</p>
<p>You say theres an innate sense of entitlement? I don't see whats wrong with that? When I've worked my ass off at school and EC's only to see a much less qualified person walk into the spot I am contending for I think everyone has a right to be mad. Also, I don't think there is an morals/ethics problem with pocket protectors, so your analogy doesn't make any sense.</p>
<p>Also, earlier I said that many kids who are just as "white bred" as any white person, but qualify as a "minority" benefit also. So there is no "incredible suffering" that these kids go through, yet they come out on top.</p>
<p>Addressing Firebird 74T: I agree the argument is trite which is why i'm kinda stunned we are still talking about it, but it was you guys who raised an objection to what I said, and I was forced to go into greater depth, and repeat a few common arguments yes. If you didn't want to hear them again, you shouldn't have started arguing.</p>
<p>Dolitwak- who are you to decide what is qualified and what isnt. You act as though adcoms are all bleeding hearts who will do anything to see a black/hispanic suceed. Just show me something that solidifies that a "much" less qualified student got in to your school simply because they were black. Are you telling me that white America cares about Pennsylvania Ave, Baltimore where is it is notoriously easy to get all types of illicit drugs. When a certain group jas been supressed for so long that a mentality is created you cant expect 40 years to pass by along with a claim of "equality" to fix everything. If you want to talk about its not fair to be punished for something because of your ancestors, then is it fair to leave those who your ancestors punished alone and say, "you are the same as them, now go." Kids where Im from are resigned to going out of HS and getting jobs, you become a someone if you just leave to go to college. And nobody is punishing white people, they still go to college, they still make up over 70% of the top school population, they still run the fortune 500 companies, they still run the country. To truly understand a persons plight, you must understand them and it seems like youve been nested away from the "real" black community and see them only as affluent folk but thats not the way it is. When I go to school next year I am gonna be in the minority for the first time in my life. How would you feel if you couldnt work you ass off for 4 years because your school was so bad, simply because of where you live. Things are different since 1964, no doubt ,but we still have ways to go. What really irks me is when people want to cry about not getting into college because the assume a URM took it, try harder, work harder and maybe perhaps you will do well enough to get into your school and leave the complaining to those who really should- inner-city youth.</p>
<p>dan, could you please stop with all the conservative boogeymen? 1/8th hispanic kids from the hamptons do not have a better shot at college. you can't turn a few anecdotes of unqualified, rich minorities getting into harvard and blow them up into a statistical generality. </p>
<p>i didn't assume that all minorities are poor or that all poor people are minorities. i'm telling you simple statistic facts (a concept you probably wouldn't understand). if everybody were equal in income and education, there would be no support anywhere for AA. but the fact that 150 years after slavery, we still have all black ghettos in every major city means that we cannot ignore race completely.</p>
<p>You have a lot of nerve telling people to work harder. Frankly, I am white and I am the minority at my school. I think the stats are something like 30% black and 30% hispanic. And what would possibly make you think that I think that all black people are "affluent folk"? Didn't I just tell you about the race riots at our school? Need I tell you more about the race related writing on the walls at our school? These are not actions of a wealthy population and I realize that. And to clarify, I agree with the earlier posts of Affirmative Action based on economic status. I think that if a person comes from an extremeley poor background where they need to take care of their siblings every day, etc. it should definiteley be considered, NO MATTER THE RACE. However, this is not the case. I have a friend at school who is black and is actually EXACTLY like that. Unfortunately, he got rejected from Brown. Those types of minorities are not the ones who get in. Its the sheltered type that are raised just as well as any white person. For instance, the daughter of a hispanic teacher at our school went to Yale last year. AA is used too often just too fill a quota for minorities and the kids who don't even have any obstacles in their way are let in. If a person truly overcame obstacles, hooray for them. However, I don't buy into this type of, "as a _________ type of person, I have had been discriminated against my whole life". As a person interested in engineering, you have no idea how many "program for minorities in engineering" ads I have come across. If anything, the race card seems to gain them even more opportunities for interesting summer internships, etc. </p>
<p>I think your argument about the "you are the same as them, now go" is interesting and makes a good point. However, I think we can both be right, the system is inherently unfair to both sides no matter what you do I guess.</p>
<p>And yes, while we still go to college, we might not get to go to our dream college. While that's not the end of the world, it still hurts.</p>
<p>"What really irks me is when people want to cry about not getting into college because the assume a URM took it"
What really irks me is URM's who think they didn't get any boost from the adcoms and feel entitled and then go tell everyone else that it was because they didn't work hard enough. I find it extremeley offensive that you would have the nerve to tell me that I didn't work hard enough.</p>
<p>And I think 40 years is enough if people take the right attitude. The kids at your school, and mine, obviously don't take the right attitude, choosing to beat each other up instead of study. But again, to repeat myself, I agree with economic based AA.</p>
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What really irks me is URM's who think they didn't get any boost from the adcoms and feel entitled and then go tell everyone else that it was because they didn't work hard enough. I find it extremeley offensive that you would have the nerve to tell me that I didn't work hard enough.
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<p>So basically you are saying that all URMs got boosted into college through AA?</p>
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And I think 40 years is enough if people take the right attitude.
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<p>I don't know of any country or ethnic group of people that has overcome several centuries worth of slavery and oppression in 40 years.</p>
<p>Colleges frequently say that they could fill their class ten times over with qualified applicants. From there its basically all a gamble. What I'm saying is that, while those minorities aren't always qualified, even the ones who are basically don't have to play to the odds. They're in. For instance, a girl I know who actually is qualified to go to MIT got in. However, she was a shoe in because she was a girl, and who knows, while she was qualified, an equally qualified guy applicant could have possibly beaten her had he been given the chance. What this means is that guy applicant didn't even get to gamble because the URM, in this case a girl at an engineering school, was automatically accepted. As for the 40 years thing, I think its a very debatable subject. I see my classmates at school ranting about the injustices to them, and then proceeding to beat each other up and skip class and don't do the homework. I realize that people face steep odds in climbing out of the hole that our idiotic ancestors dug, but it looks like they are mostly doing the injustices to themselves. I realize they were put into that position by the numerous injustices that began 100's of years ago, but I think at a certain point you have to take charge of your own life and quit blaming other people. I don't know much about Asian history, but I do know the Chinese were repressed and discriminated against when they came to this country. They took on meanial jobs, but managed to work their way up through the ladder, and now make up a disproportionate amount of college students. Again, since I don't know much about Asian history and couldn't find much about this on the internet, this could be an inaccurate analogy, but I figured I'd throw it out there.</p>
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I don't know much about Asian history, but I do know the Chinese were repressed and discriminated against when they came to this country. They took on meanial jobs, but managed to work their way up through the ladder, and now make up a disproportionate amount of college students. Again, since I don't know much about Asian history and couldn't find much about this on the internet, this could be an inaccurate analogy, but I figured I'd throw it out there.
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<p>I don't think it's a very good analogy.</p>
<p>Africans were brought to America as slaves and nothing more. Millions were brought over as property to be bought and sold. They faced this kind of treatment for around 200-300 years.</p>
<p>The Chinese who came over (at least in the 19th century) weren't exactly shackled and brought over in large numbers to be bought and sold as slaves, although they were treated very badly and were not allowed to bring wives over from China or marry white women here. They did not face discrimination in the U.S. for as long as those of African descent have. Many of the successful Chinese-Americans are more recent immigrants, who are mostly well-educated and highly trained/skilled.</p>
<p>
what really irks me is URMs who work their ass off to get into a good school, but then everyone tells them they got in because of AA.</p>
<p>Well, if they don't need it then I don't see what we're arguing about here. We can get rid of it if every one of those kids could get in without AA. The fact that we are even arguing says to me that people know its not true. I agree its a shame to the body of qualified minorities that make it on their own, but you can't have it both ways.</p>
<p>And, again, you may be right about the Chinese analogy, but I do know they came around right after the civil war to build the transcontinental railroad and actually were shipped over in very large amounts in conditions equal to a slave ship. Once they got here they were paid extremeley small wages and discriminated against. But I guess since they didn't spend years in slavery before that it's not exactly the same, your right.(no sarcastic tone there, lol).</p>
<p>
i'm not saying that every URM could get in without AA (read: poor blacks may not be able to- and i realize that that is a socioeconomic condition). i am saying that for those of us who can get in without AA, there is always a stigma attached to us: that we were underqualified and that our skin color was the only reason we were accepted.</p>
<p>I, too, have a lot of people in my school who wear oversized jackets, blast rap music through their cell phones, break each other's teach, torment the teachers, and skip classes, who complain about injustices.</p>
<p>The interesting part is that they're mostly rich white kids.</p>
<p>Lol, just my slightly irrelevant anecdote.</p>
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what really irks me is URMs who work their ass off to get into a good school, but then everyone tells them they got in because of AA.
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<p>You're categorizing. What about the one's who don't work hard and whose minority status only compliments their affluent suburban upbringing? They exist too, my friend. Don't be so inclined to assume otherwise.</p>
<p>Otherwise, good point. It just leads to more racism. So it should be defenestrated.</p>
<p>
hmmm, interesting. i never said that all URMs work hard. maybe you should reread my post. if i said "all URMs work hard," then your comment would have been pertinent. But because i only spoke to "URMs who work their ass off" (direct quote from my post) i did not "assume otherwise."</p>