Affirmative Action just leads to more racism.

<p>Some people may just feel comfortable living with someone similar to themselves...they may feel more at ease with those they feel would share similar culture and experiences. I admit I feel like that at times.</p>

<p>I live in a pretty white area and I can't lie to myself and say that I have never felt relieved at seeing another minority at events or functions that weren't extremely diverse. No offense, but white culture abounds in this country...you see it politics, the media, education. I can be empathetic to the idea of minorities seeking some solidarity.</p>

<p>Still, in college, I wouldn't want to be completely surrounded by those who like me...I could do that at home and be a heck of a lot richer :p In general, it's all personal preference.</p>

<p>No, everyone doesn't hang out with their own race. Some frats are racial. But is this racism? Certainly I agree with you that it's overstated and talked about too much (not that I really hear about it that often, but fairly often), but to call Berkeley racist doesn't seem correct.</p>

<p>Need;</p>

<p>The point is that your mother earned her first degree in a country that is majoritarian chinese, so she does not feel oppressed, even when she came to the US. The same thing usually happens with first-generation Jamacians and most other first generation populations, that do not start out on the bottom of contemporary American society.</p>

<p>And, you've proved my point about 'blending' and not knowing your culture. BTW, it's not only about religion and food. There are cultural expectations, for instance. Since your mother was brought up in a culture where she enjoyed a priviledge position, she passed that on to you. Didn't you say you were born in California but identify yourself as a Coloradian?! Interesting that you'd want to blend in (although many studies have been done about that). I'm not fron CA, I'm actually from WA. First geners usually want to blend, second geners tend to be more ambivelent (and caught between cultures), and third geners are usually intergrated and want to be seen as individuals.</p>

<p>BTW, no one asked you to worship any other ethnicity. The idea is that there needs to be a recognition that as Americans we do somethings better than others (either historically or currently). Race issues have never been our strong point. Not sure what you are talking about when you identify american values. How do you define 'american values'?</p>

<p>Being an American is not predicated on being born here, if you are looking for a definitional. So it is simple in the sense that your home country would be the US. The true issue, is that some who are Americans get better treatment than others, except for, maybe, in some college admissions decisions. So, I think that to say every thing is even is a little bit idylic.</p>

<p>As to my other post, did you come up with why Hawaii has lower test scores than the majority of other states, even though they are about 68% Asian? 'Model minority'....pits certain asian groups against other minorities to dilute URM power in general and preserve the status quo, or so it has been argued by many sociologists. As a part white kid myself, you are lucky to be able to identify with the majoritarian culture which also sees asians as the 'model minority'. That maybe in part why you believe that the system is inherently fair.</p>

<p>Perhaps, that is the issue. </p>

<p>Just an opinion.
IB </p>

<p>PS--As for scores being influenced, my private HS has classes to prep for tests, so it is not a small industry. I benefitted by it by a couple of hundred points (2340 SAT). Does it mean that I am smarter? Nope. It means that I was more familiar and more comfortable with the format of the test.</p>

<p>Isle:</p>

<p>I lived in CO for most of my life; heck, i barely remember California considering I moved out of it when I was 5. So yes, I'd say that living in CO for 12 years does indeed justify the fact that I'm not Californian considering I went to most of my elementary, all of my middle school, and all of high school there.</p>

<p>American values in my opinion equates to having a sense of where your ancestors came from, but not really giving a *****. This is a European example, but in England the race riots derived from the fact that Muslim communities were separating themselves from the Caucasian British people and thus forming 'states" within a state. A lot of British people, for example, would be okay with immigrants if they tried to integrate themselves into society, rather than separating themselves from British society. Thus, American values and society in my opinion equates to having a sense of where one comes from, but also realizing that it doesn't matter. I mean, why does it matter anyway? If you decide to come to America, you want to reap its benefits--economic ones probably--so you might as well try to accept its culture, while still having sense of where your ancestors' came from, etc. It's just then people get carried away with oh, America= emphasizing diversity all the time. In my opinion America= land where people came to reap economic benefits, and thus who really cares what ethnicity you are?</p>

<p>Regarding Hawaii, I'd have to say that the Asian inhabitants of Hawaii aren't really "Asian" believe it or not. The Polynesians arrived there 14K years ago, and much later the Japanese. Culturally Hawaiians are not like other Asians in Eastern Asia.</p>

<p>But yes, viewing a particular ethnicity as the "model minority' is indeed unfair treatment. I'd rather everyone be seen as losers than have one group have such high expectations.</p>

<p>Need:</p>

<p>Actually, the Japanese/Chinese/Filipinos/Koreans did displace the native Hawaiian population (who were originally traced from around the Yang-Tze River in China by anthropologists) after Captain Cook's landing. So the SAT scores (of which a small percentage are from Native Hawaiians that take the test) are primarily from the Japanese/Chinese/Krean/Filipino cohort, as well as the non-URM cohort. So why, still, low scores?</p>

<p>Also, some of your formative years 0-5 took place in CA, where Asians are sometimes seen as the 'model minority', so you have been or are privy to have developed that sense, whether right or wrong, that Asians are 'better' and that other minorities are characterized as 'losers' (see your last paragraph). That could have been reinforced by the move to Colorado, where you can be cast in the majority for being half-white, as well as a favored minority. You enjoy to an extent majoritarian power. With that 'power' comes some responsibility. Rather than 'blaming the victims for all their problems, recognize that all of us have a part to play in the development of negative stereotypes.'</p>

<p>As for economic equity, women and minorities, before AA, made far less money versus the majority for the same work. They also did not have much access to education, housing, and particular careers. So, it is clear historically and currently (just look at the segregation in Nebraska schools--which boarders Colorado) for proof. The upside is that more women and minorities are going to college. But, I would not say the emphasis on ethnicity has been positive. Why?</p>

<p>Becuase those who enjoy the status quo, or who are seen as a 'model minority' do not want to lose some power to ensure that there is equality of opportunity at the college level (or the elementary or secondary school level, for instance). Some URMs have it worse than the non-URM majority as they may look different. And since most prefer that one 'blends', those that do not look the same are punished, sometimes consciously or unconsciously. Read "Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria".</p>

<p>I'm not sure if your last sentence is what you believe or whether you are being sarcastic, but I can only say that by pitting what some might consider a URM group (Chinese/Japanese/Koreans) against other URM groups (i.e. Southeast Asians, Blacks, Hispanics, etc...) one can also believe (perhaps incorrectly) that they are better somehow than the rest. Looking at the posts here on CC, which concern themselves with the inequity in college admission (while not dealing with developmental, special talent, legacy, geographical, and ED candidates because they tend to be non-URMs) is very interesting. The inequity with respect to some URMs education begins far earlier than 17 or 18. There are differences (partly developed through legislation and socio-cutural beliefs and practices) in pre-college schooling, housing, financing, employment, etc...</p>

<p>So equal opportunity as a political or social idea has not been adequately dealt with.</p>

<p>As for the student protests in europe (especially France and England), it is precisely because of institutional segregation in housing, employment, and education that some have rioted. They were not embraced by the majoritarian culture. Why? Becuase, some of them look a bit different. And, the citizens who are part of the status quo have ignored the issues reguarding race. Likewise, some Americans after 9/11 look at Middle Easterners as suspect, hence the rise in violence against them within the past few years. Some Americans have not connected the idea that not all Middle Easterners are of the same mindset. Or if you need another example, look at the Japanese internment during WWII, where American citzens were placed because they had particular characteristics, while other (non-URMs) because they could 'blend' were not treated as suspect.</p>

<p>Equal opportunity or equal treatment?! Perhaps not.</p>

<p>Just an opinion.
IB</p>

<p>wats the difference?</p>

<p>let's say there's a hispanic and an asian</p>

<p>just because someones hispanic and different color skinned, does nto mean they are more "stupid" or "under represented" as they say. why should race play ANY ROLE In admissions. this REALLY SUCKS. a LOT.</p>

<p>theres a girl at my school who does not rank even in top 10%, and she is going to UC BERKELEY. she took 2 or 3 ap's and sat score was 1520/2400
very bad... yeah.. shes an URM. i wont say her race cause it would offend some people</p>

<p>no offense some "URMS" are btter off than non-URMs. in my neighborhood the "URMs" drive the fancy cars, wear the fancy clothes</p>

<p>i greatly agree with "need"... same case as me</p>

<p>"THE GFG: Maybe he had to figure out how to learn AP Calculus BC or Physics C on his own despite an ineffective, underqualified teacher--something his non-URM classmates didn't have to worry much about since they had money to contract private tutors or could simply get help from their Dad who's a math professor....the URM kid is spending every waking minute writing essays for scholarships so he can afford to attend college without becoming an endentured servant."</p>

<p>WOW.WOW. WOW. i am Asian. NOT a URM; however my family was too poor to hire a private tutor for my math classes while allt he rich kids hired teachers and got A.s ONT HE OTHER HAND, the URMs at my school, even though they are "under represented," hired tutors and got the A's as well.
and i just filled out a gazillion scholarships, wrote a gazillion essays to work my way through college wheras the URM just gets a free ride. i hate AA</p>

<p>Yeah, I know.
[rant] This girl got into Stanford simply because she is an URM... with sub-2000 SAT scores. Another one got into MIT because she was an URM also. And mind you, her SAT MATH scores sucked. I believe it was below 650. They both went to my school and are in no way disadvantaged. They pay full tuition and have plenty of opportunities available to them... and yet they receive affirmative action. And yes, I know life is unfair. [/rant]</p>

<p>
[quote]
theres a girl at my school who does not rank even in top 10%, and she is going to UC BERKELEY. she took 2 or 3 ap's and sat score was 1520/2400
very bad... yeah.. shes an URM. i wont say her race cause it would offend some people</p>

<p>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>California public universities do not consider race in its admissions practices. Now if you need a scape goat because you did not get in to Berkley and you or some other bitter person thinks that someone took your spot (this threads always crop back up right after the admissions decisions go out) get over it because no one has any spots to begin with and take a page from the bible where it says "let a man first examine himself"</p>

<p>Colleges want to accept "the best, brightest, and most promising" to their institution. This is why I believe that race should not ba factor WHAT SO EVER and further more, the question should be taken off the application. I know of many URMs that are EXTREMELY qualified as well as plenty of people who may be, say, white. </p>

<p>I think its horrible that if two people had the EXACT same statistics and one was "white" or "asian" and the other was "hispanic" "black" "native american" etc, they would take the URM. Why? "diversity" Personally, I think people should get into school because of their talent, not their race (no pun intended). If that means someone over a URM, or even a URM over a white, etc. than thats what it means. Race should not play a part in ANY way. For that matter, neither should sex (i guess accept at single sex institutions).</p>

<p>

I agree with you completely</p>

<p>*<strong><em>groan</em></strong>*</p>

<p>Let it die, puh-leeeez</p>

<p>ZZZZzzzzzzzz.</p>

<p>bobmallet, why did you just revive a thread from over a year ago?</p>

<p>This has probably been hashed and re-hashed all over this 11 page thread, but I can't help but post my opinion.</p>

<p>AA shouldn't be abolished for the simple fact that it does exactly what it should -- builds a diverse class. What would you get out of a college setting if everyone who went there was exactly like you and thought along the same lines as you do? You wouldn't encounter anything new... The truth is that officers are building a class that will foster growth and enrichment.</p>

<p>it seems to me as though AA in and of itself is racist; not just against white males, but against minorities, too. i think AA implies that minorities aren't "good enough" to be accepted to the schools, jobs, etc. (the bar is lowered "just" so they can gain admittance) in the first place. whatever happened to the good old meritocracy?</p>

<p>I believe that affirmative action can work under certain conditions, but we don't meet them now. Minorities, primarily blacks, don't get anywhere as good of an education as others, because their schools are amongst the worst in the country. Many simply can't go to college until these schools are improved. We need to work from the bottom up, not the top down! Once we improve our elementary, middle, and high schools in low income and minority areas, THEN we can correctly use affirmative action until it is no longer needed.</p>

<p>please, do control yourself from posting on this dead thread, especially when nobody is saying anything new or original. I could probably point to at least 30 posts where each of the opinions above were already expressed.</p>

<p>Agreed. I think that us AA arguers have agreed to an unspoken armistice, as North and South Korea have--technically at war, but really at peace. Let it remain that way.</p>