<p>Twenty five percent of the population at any school is going to be less "qualified" than the other 75 percent. Are they not "smart enough to get in"? Are they "ashamed" too? How about the bottom 30 or 45 the percent?</p>
<p>I see a lot of assumptions made here. The most prevalent of which is that people of different races are all treated equally before college applications begin. Perhaps the current state of affirmative action isn't ideal, but it certainly isn't motivated by racism.</p>
<p>Before you make comments like this, imagine saying them to the audience you're discussing (in this case, minorities with lower SAT scores or GPAs being admitted to elite schools). If you wouldn't feel comfortable because you'd be embarrassed, perhaps your intuitions are pointing you in the right direction. This issue is complex, and some of the reactions to it that I'm reading are not.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Perhaps the current state of affirmative action isn't ideal, but it certainly isn't motivated by racism.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>IMHO, if it is not appropriate to do it for one race, it is not appropriate to do it for any race. We need to get past the whole race thing, regardless of the intentions. Color blind is a good thing.</p>
<p>cloying: Of course it would be uncomfortable, bc you can't say anything these days without p***ing someone off (not specifically minorities, just people in general). THE WORLD ISN'T FAIR. Someone is always going to have a bigger house, a nicer car, a better school, etc. than someone else. But does AA really help lower that gap, or does it only fuel more controversy? Does it encourage harder work, more motivation, or simply make excuses for something that will never be resolved in the first place? I think that is the main question. I'm not saying I have the answer, bc I certainly don't, but I just think those are questions everyone needs to ask themselves when defending or criticizing the system.</p>
<p>shrinkrap: IDK, you should go to an elite school and ask them yourself.</p>
<p>wow there are many AA threads...too many to count :)</p>
<p>Life certainly isn't fair, but it is outrageous to say that the repercussions of racism in America are one of life's excusable problems. Racism effects the records of high schoolers both in the quality of education they're offered at their public schools and in the way people push their negative expectations to minorities. There's a significant difference in the level of support a typical white male can expect during his high school career compared to a black student. It follows then that colleges that have their heads on straight shouldn't expect the same scores from a black female from a poorer area of America versus a white male from a more wealthy area. A fair admissions process will examine effort exerted in a given environment.</p>
<p>I would be ashamed of myself if I were to say someone didn't deserve to be at my school because their scores or performance in high school wasn't as high as mine, unless it was absolutely clear that they were slacking off. At the end of the day, I respect that it's the college that makes the calls as to what constitutes diversity and what they feel demonstrates a high school career that merits admission.</p>
<p>shrinkrap: IDK, you should go to an elite school and ask them yourself</p>
<p>Ask who what? The bottom half of the class if they are ashamed? I would not ask a question like that ( anywhere but here!). I assume they would be pleased and proud to be wherever they matriculated. And I'm done with school, and at an HBCU, thank you very much. But my husband ( and my Dad ) went to Columbia and we discuss "fit" ad nauseum, given my graduating D's postiton. I doubt either were ashamed although THAT word was NEVER mentioned. They were not intimidated, nor daunted, nor did they feel "not smart enough", and they did not end up at the bottom of their classes. My dad was told it "was not time" for a Black man to get his PhD though.</p>
<p>cloying: I can say w/o reservation that the black students at my high school receive far more support than virtually any other student. Why should a black football player getting recruited by every major Pac-10 school receive more support than a white student aiming for an Ivy? Or than a Hispanic aiming for Stanford? Likewise, as you mention, black students should not be at a disadvantage, either. Colleges, and high schools, middle schools, govt., etc. need to find a balance between these two. That was my only point, I LOVE diversity (that was one of the first things I looked at when choosing where to apply), one of my best friends is black, and another of my good friends is Mexican. So it isn't a personal issue, perhaps simply a moral one. I realize it is very controversial, and great arguments can be made on both sides. I just don't believe the current system is the answer.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap: I am glad your experience was different from my friends. Thus is the beauty of life: no two people are the same.</p>
<p>
[quote]
We need to get past the whole race thing, regardless of the intentions. Color blind is a good thing.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>While a colorblind society naturally is ideal, it's also impossible in a society like ours where people are NOT inherently equal by birth. In America, each person's opportunities are drastically different, and by taking these differences into consideration when judging academic performance, we attempt to level the playing field.</p>
<p>I'd recommed reading Savage Inequalities by Jonathan Kozol whether you agree with this idea or not--it's non-fiction but reads very easily and raises some hard questions.</p>
<p>People assume way too much about AA, and the most vocal tend to be those who have never had to deal directly with it themselves in any capacity. Everyone has some anecdotal tale ("a friend of mine...", or "I know people who...", etc ) to support what they want to believe. It doesn't matter. AA exists, and it exists for a reason, whether you accept it or not. </p>
<p>Moreover, there are so many forms of AA taking place that college admissions will never be a strict meritocracy, and IMO there is no reason it should ever strive to be. Not on this thread necessarily, but I'm also convinced a lot people on CC just use AA as a platform to express their own latent racism and xenophobia. Some of the things written on these boards about minorities, and African-Americans in particular, are amazingly hateful considering the function CC serves. </p>
<p>Most don't even know what racism really is, and have never once been subject to it in their lives, but are always talking about "reverse racism" as though they have been individually persecuted in some way. Oh how I wish people would become so concerned about real inequities that have real consequences for those who are truly powerless. The kind of situations they ignore daily without a care being they percieve no impact to their own lives such as they do with college admissions.</p>
<p>vc08, you seem to be a nice person and I know you have good intentions at heart, and I'm sure that you realize that citing anecdotal evidence never sits well in a conversation like this (especially on this forum!). The fact is that for many people, the only way out of their crappy high schools are sports. My initial comment really was less directed at you, so no worries.</p>
<p>
[quote]
While a colorblind society naturally is ideal, it's also impossible in a society like ours where people are NOT inherently equal by birth.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Gotta disagree with you Lee, people ARE born equal. If we could move toward colorblindness (and we wont if we don't start trying) we would be a whole lot better for it.</p>
<p>cloying: No offense given, no offense taken. (Ironically, it's the sports, not the education, that is crappy at our school lol!)...It was nice talking with you all, good luck in future experiences!</p>
<p>So then a lot of you think that nothing should be done to help blacks who are having trouble succeeding as a result of racism and failed reconstruction? So then why do we help the poor with welfare, they're obviously just lazy bums, we should be consistent across all socioeconomic brackets too. Its only fair. </p>
<p>And minority scholarships aren't racist. They're given w/ the intention to include a section of the population that is typically excluded by the conditions of other scholarships. I see nothing wrong with a black, hispanic, polish, irish, japanese, or yugoslavian scholarship. There IS something wrong with a white scholarship as by saying you only give it to whites, it means everybody who is not colored, you're being exclusive. </p>
<p>And where there is no value of absolute merit in college admissions, the terms more or less qualified have no meaning.</p>
<p>vistany:
If people in America are truly born "equal," then why are some children born in ghettos to drug-addicted parents and some raised in gated communities, getting new BMWs for their 16th birthdays?</p>
<p>Obviously it's not because the poor children aren't TRYING to succeed..they aren't given the opportunity.
Unfortunately, the American Dream is often very inaccessible to people raised in essential squalor.</p>
<p>Lee, We are using different definitions of equal. You are referring to socio economic status. I thought we were discussing race. Economic equality is called communism.
As I depart this thread I will just say that if people had the goal of "colorblindness" none of the rest of it would be necessary because racism would not exist. We all agree it is wrong.</p>
<p>I've never liked the idea of being colorblind. First because it's impossible and second because it's a little ridiculous - people don't claim to be colorblind in terms of hair or eye color, so I don't see why it should extend to race. Racism and awareness of race are two totally different issues.</p>
<p>i dont think its fair to assume that just because people are URM's (blacks) means that they are oppressed and growing up in a crappy high school. It would be better to judge opportunity by socioeconomic status than race.
A rich black guy from a good neighborhood gets a huge boost from AA, and a poor white/asian guy from a crappy neighborhood does not.
The question remains: why are we making all these assumptions and rewarding people off these assumptions based on race?</p>
<p>eliz53 what the HECK are you talking about!!!!! AA discriminates against whites and SUPPORTS minorities (Asians). you might want to do some research...</p>
<p>oh and by the way "underrepresented minority" is kind of a paradox...a minority is a small part of something or therefore not very well represented...just a thought :)</p>