<p>"Ironically, I now think the school should go back to a full fraternity system and sell the Greylock Quad to some sororities."</p>
<p>Since the balance may go the other way, perhaps just a movement to allow the "Odd Quad" to remain odd. (Sorry for the inside humor.)</p>
<p>Bay:
[quote]
Through thick and thin and geographical separations, we have maintained a special friendship "bond." I believe this is a common experience among Greeks, and a rare one among non-Greeks.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It is, in fact, not a rare experience among non-Greeks. Many of us who attended schools that were not Greek did not have any trouble making friends or keeping them throughout the years. Perhaps the biggest "argument" against Greek life is exactly what you just hit on - that it marginalizes kids who are not part of the system, and really, why would you want to do that?</p>
<p>weenie,</p>
<p>I sense a bit of animosity here. It is funny that you interpret my post this way. My school happened to have a very small Greek system, which was actually considered "uncool" to be a part of. Ironically, I felt "marginalized" by the non-Greek student population. Perhaps I am just not as good at making and keeping friends as you are.</p>
<p>"I sense a bit of animosity here."</p>
<p>Well, you basically suggested that on the whole, we shouldn't expect our kids to be close friends with their college buddies in 30 years unless they go Greek. That suggestion borders on the insulting in my book, not because it overstates Greek bonds, but because it wildly understates the strength of bonds that are formed in other ways. I'll take the Pepsi challenge with any Greek group and the older a cappella groups on my campus, just for one example. My group recently celebrated the 20th anniversary of our "chapter," and although we live literally all over the country and the world, more than half of the entire roster of initiates across the last 20 years showed up. If your Greek chapter can boast that kind of devotion among its membership, well, I'm very impressed.</p>
<p>On some campuses, where dorm life is close to nil and other clubs are stagnant, Greek membership is your best bet for making close friends. My boyfriend is an Alpha Sigma Phi who attended that kind of school, and I don't think he'd have formed the same kind of close bonds without a frat. But those blood-brother college friendships are not rare among non-Greeks.</p>
<p>I know that my H. and I keep in close contact with our college friends and it has been 30 years. Neither of us "went Greek". However, most of our long-time friends did share a college interest group with us--mostly our majors. I guess that may be what frat/sor. do for others.</p>
<p>Jeez Hanna,</p>
<p>I had no intention of "insulting" your children or "wildly understating" anything! Sorry if you took it so defensively! I was merely sharing my own experience and observations. I was at a large university and was not a musician or athlete. For ME, the decision to go Greek turned out to be a positive one with life-lasting impact.</p>
<p>Apparently nobody on the other side of this discussion wants to hear anything positive.</p>
<p>Both my boys graduated with excellent GPA's. Neither ever dropped a class nor received a "W". The "average" GPA of the frat is posted using the same guidelines as anybody elses GPA. You can compare frats according to the criteria. </p>
<p>By "Like minded students" I meant students who valued community service, academics, athletics and friendships. I don't say you have to join a fraternity to get these things, but it helped. It also helped a shy young man have friends living nearby. He found more partying in the dorm.</p>
<p>As for costs, living in the fraternity was cheaper than the dorm or an apartment. They offered an 8 month lease instead of 12 which in Ann Arbor, was very helpful. Both boys paid for their dues out of summer earnings. In effect, they saved us money.</p>
<p>3bm-- the rest of us are tired of posting, but we support your pov. I know lots of kids in college who have gotten into trouble, be it an arrest for dealing drugs out of the dorm, major car accident involving substance abuse and an unlicensed minor as the "designated driver" (great for Mom and Dad's insurance); cheating, etc. Plus the plain vanilla drop-outs. "He was bored with his classes"-- said kid is now home sitting on the sofa watching "Beauty and the Geek"-- guess that's more interesting than Renaissance History.</p>
<p>None of these kids were involved in a frat; parents supremely self-righteous when they heard my kid had joined a frat, "I'd never let my kid join a fraternity.... those kids are straight out of animal house".</p>
<p>So-- college students get into all sorts of dangerous and anti-social behaviors whether living in a dorm, an apartment, a fraternity, or even under mom and dad's roof. As I posted before, it's easy to be self-congratulatory about your parenting skills if your kid isn't interested in going beyond the boundaries you've set. For the rest of us out here in the real world.... it's a tougher thing to try and respect an almost-adult's decisions while reminding them of the dangers of the world.</p>
<p>My son's frat was a pretty blue-collar place. The kids worked hard because they had to.... ROTC, med school, student loans, challenging work-study and research commitments...most of the guys didn't have mom and dad to bankroll whatever screw-ups they found themselves in. You graduate late? One more semester of student loans. Miss a day of work because you've got a hangover? Boss docks your pay. Not every frat is populated by the country club set....</p>
<p>To the OP -- I asked my son whether pledging or anything else to do with his frat had negatively affected his grades. He said the time involved with pledging might have (hard to sort out, given a hellish course load and a family tragedy that same semester), but nothing since.</p>
<p>It seems reasonable to me that you ask your son to demonstrate he can take a full load and get his grades up first, and then pledge the following semester. Perhaps by then he won't want to. I think there can be a sort of panic freshman year as people watch their new found friends decide to rush, and start thinking about living arrangements sophomore year. It may feel as if everybody is going Greek, which might not even be true. Once that's past, perhaps the reasons for joining versus not joining will be easier for him to weigh.</p>
<p>But off the frat/sor rants and back to the OP to me IMHO frat/sor is a privilege, an "extra" and a kid who with a W and the grades the OP talked about hasn't earned the "extra".</p>
<p>
[quote]
But off the frat/sor rants and back to the OP to me IMHO frat/sor is a privilege, an "extra" and a kid who with a W and the grades the OP talked about hasn't earned the "extra".
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Word to that. People who slack off as independents have no place in greek life.</p>
<p>
We originally had 8. One ended up deciding to drop when he decided that a fraternity was not for him (we were all quite sad but are still friends with him, we don't consider him a traitor for quitting and he actually played on our intramural team this year), his GPA was lower than the pledge class but still above a 3.0. A second did not have a high enough GPA to join the fraternity so we all encouraged him and helped him get it up there, and his GPA has improved every term. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF US DROPPED A CLASS WITHOUT PICKING UP ANOTHER ONE. WE HAVE CARRIED A FULL LOAD EVERY INGLE TERM. Two of us were on Honor Roll again this term while working full-time on rush.</p>
<p>Of course not every pledge class achieves that. In fact half my pledge class is here on scholarships (which we have to maintain a high GPA while carrying a full load to keep), which means that no only are we smart, but we're also not very rich and several of us have additional scholarships to pay fraternity dues or pay reduced dues because of financial need.</p>
<p>Dima, Thank you for coming back to this thread to answer my questions.</p>
<p>I've been trying to, I haven't been able to get on CC for a couple of days. It's been a strange experience. It forced me to start contemplating law school by using law school discussion forums as a sub :)</p>
<p>Like I said, every fraternity is different, every pledge class was different. The valedictorian back in 2003 was from my fraternity, and he had one of the highest (may even have been the highest) GPAs in school history. But for the past few years my fraternity has been near the bottom of GPA rankings. Now my pledge class is bringing it up again and the guys we're hoping to get this year are of the same caliber. In fact, I've spotted three of their names on the Honor Roll this term!</p>
<p>Here are the latest statistics from son's school from the fall semester:</p>
<p>Female -- 51.2% in sororities
Average UG gpa-- 3.17
Sorority gpa-- 3.175</p>
<p>Male -- 34% in fraternities
Average UG gpa-- 3.005
Fraternity gpa-- 2.948</p>
<p>So it looks as if the Greek students overall have nearly identical averages to the overall population.</p>
<p>I think your son should not join a fraternity, especially since you know so little about it as parents. I suggest you do a little research before reaching arriving at a conclusion. However, I can tell you that your son WILL change drastically after joining a fraternity, especially if it's a social one. Personally, frats really destroys one's sense of individuality.</p>
<p>My son was somewhat on the fence about whether to go through rush. I think there are definite benefits to being in a fraternity or sorority, and there are negatives. It is the same as with anything. It is a matter of individual fit. I thought it would be good for my son, who isn't known for compassion for others, to experience the close bonds that form. On the other hand, he is a recruited athlete, and if he ever recovers from his knee problems, he won't have any extra time. He decided on his own to NOT go through rush.</p>
<p>Well, here's an update: Son is going ahead and pledging a fraternity. In the end, we realized that he is more successful in school when he is happy socially, and all of the small group of friends he had made first semester were going in that direction. We may have wimped out, but frats seem central at his college (despite the gnashing of my teeth) and in the end, I just couldn't step into his social life in such a drastic way. </p>
<p>He is trying to join one along w/ two friends; we will see how that goes. We have advised him not to take a heavy course load this semester, and, due to our discussions and the recent experiences of several college seniors he knows, it seems like he does understand that his grades WILL have an impact on his future. He is a sensitive, empathetic kid, so it will be interesting to see if there's a personality change, tennis craze. </p>
<p>The results will be out this afternoon and if anybody is interested I'll post.</p>
<p>SuNa, please post what the outcome is. I think that with careful planning this will be a positive experience. Your S goes to a academic college if I remember. Even fraternity boys have to study, it's not like a big public state school where not everyone is in a challenging major. I think that if the fraternity does things right they will schedule study time in and may be great mentors to your S. It helps the fraternity to have a high GPA, so they should be mindful of how their rushees do this semester.</p>
<p>As some of you will remember, son was ill most of last semester, home for surgery and basically just struggled to finish his classes. He never joined a frat at his school that is very heavy Greek. I talked to him over the weekend and he was studying on Sat. night as he said if you're not doing frat stuff, there is not much else to do. He still doesn't think he would like the frat mentality (though he does like many students as individuals who happen to be in frats), but due to the heavy emphasis on his campus, he does feel like an outsider. It's a hard call.</p>