<p>Oh, Shankapotamus- you just made my day! I’ve had a rough go of things today so I do want to savor this small morsel of mirth, but have you ever stopped to consider the possibility that it’s difficult to draw proper inferences from discussions in which you know practically zero about the speaker or how they are saying something? You kind of remind me of this girl I knew who would jump all over any male that was nice to her and shout that she wasn’t interested in them. We called her Killer. I get the impression you and jumpfroggyjump actually have a pretty similar take on things. Where things start getting weedy is when you make authoratative declarations of intent on the part of others and perceive everything as an anti-ND slam. Might I suggest taking statements at face value instead of getting so worked up about your between-the-lines reading?</p>
<p>Shank, I read all of the posts from Frog in this thread and don’t get the impression at all that you seem to insist on that he’s implying that ND is inferior academically due to the lack of diversity … just that it is, well, less diverse. And that is the case relative to other top universities, surely you’re able to recognize that? You’re smart enough to have gotten into ND; use that quality liberal-arts-grounded education your parents are paying big bucks for to craft a logical and persuasive argument; leave the personal attacks to those who aren’t able to do better.</p>
<ol>
<li>My parents didn’t pay big bucks for my education.</li>
<li>He clearly said that “ND is not an attractive destination for top students who aren’t Catholic”.</li>
</ol>
<p>That is clearly a negative statement first of all, not at all a “neutral” or “objective” statement. There are multiple problems with that statement. First, that is in fact a statement about academics and quality of the student body—the clear implication being that ND doesn’t attract a number of high ranking students because of some percieved lack of diversity or because ND is a Catholic school. Again, while ND might not attract that number of Asians or other minorities that a Stanford does, that does not in itself mean the student body is somehow inferior, or second rate, or is missing out from a quality perspective simply because other schools might attract more Asians. There is a preconcieved bias and racial assumption in that statement which doesn’t sit well.</p>
<p>Second, who is this guy to say that “ND is not an attractive destination” for Asians or minorities? Is that based on some statistic? Is that based on some evidence? Where does that kind of idiocy come from? Maybe the minority students at ND are perfectly happy and very content with their college choice—including the most recent Valedictorian, an African American woman pre med Biology student. The unsupported conclusion, without ANY BASIS whatsoever, for the negative statement that “ND isn’t attractive” unless you are white and Catholic is one of the most racist statements I have ever heard stated about a university. How you could miss that obvious false assumption that froggy pulled out of his hindquarters completely is mindboggling. I am simply not going to let someone who is that clueless get away with making that kind of unsupported false assertion with such obvious racist overtones. Sorry if that ruffles your girdle.</p>
<p>Shank, doesn’t ruffle my girdle, but does make me wonder about your ability to think logically. Realize this is coming from someone who is a big fan of Notre Dame: you aren’t doing the school any favors with your personal, knee-jerk, overreactions. </p>
<p>Notre Dame is obviously not an attractive choice for many Asians, evidenced by the reality that they are not applying and being accepted there in proportion to other top colleges. Same with non-Catholics. There are likely a number of reasons for that, some of which have been suggested in this thread, including by you. These reasons by themselves do not suggest that ND is academically inferior, but they may be relevant to someone who highly values a very diverse student body. Acknowledging this is not racist, nor does it discount your anecdotal evidence that some URMs are thriving there. </p>
<p>Frog’s assertion is “one of the most racist statements I have ever heard stated about a university”. You don’t get out much, do you?</p>
<p>I get out enough to know that the statement “ND is not an attractive choice for the overwhelming majority of top students other than white Catholics” is not only a racist statement, but is patently false, absurd and idiotic. Also, the assumption that ALL Asians are “top students” is silly also. I would venture to take an educated guess that Notre Dame’s percentage of minorities which will be 23% in the coming class is as good or better than other schools similarly situated geographically and that are religious based schools (ie, see Marquette, Villanova, Creighton, St Louis U, Xavier, Loyola, Fordham, Holy Cross, Dayton, Boston College etc). I would also guess it even stacks up well with northern public schools of good quality, even though they HAVE to actively seek minorities to fill “slots” (ie Michigan, Penn St, Wisconsin, Indiana, Minnesota, Purdue, Miami of Ohio, Ohio St, Illinois). The idea that Notre Dame is not diverse because they don’t have as many Asian students as Stanford or Southern Cal or UCLA, or that has anything to do with “getting top students” or academic quality of the student body is patently absurd.</p>
<p>But Shank, the argument you’re making doesn’t at all refute Frog’s point. He doesn’t claim that ND doesn’t have the same proportion of Asian students as “other schools similarly situated geographically and that are religious based schools”. His point is that ND does not have the same proportion as other top academic universities (HYPSM, other Ivies, Duke, Northwestern, WashU, etc.). I haven’t verified this, but I expect it’s true. There are a LOT of white faces at ND. Why you’ve chosen to interpret this as a slight I don’t know, but it’s kind of ridiculous.</p>
<p>its a slight because of the original statement he made and his attempt to link it to academic quality, despite the denials. You need to read carefully his statements:</p>
<p>First, he said that “Notre Dame is not an attractive destination for the overwhelming majority of TOP students who aren’t Catholic (including Asian Americans).” He then followed that with “many prospective students who are not white upper middle class do not feel at home at ND” and that “diversity is a problem at ND”. All those statements are NEGATIVE assessments of Notre Dame, subjectively stated, without any statistics or even anecdotal evidence to back them up. Combining those thoughts together, he is basically saying “ND is only an attractive school to white upper middle class Catholics” and that if you are a minority such as an Asian, you won’t feel “at home” and that this is a “problem” at ND. </p>
<p>Further, he took a discussion about diversity and linked it to academics, surmising that ND isn’t attractive to top students UNLESS they are white Catholics(and in doing so automatically assumed that all Asians are “top students”, as if there aren’t any average or just above average Asian students). Those are all SUBJECTIVE BIASED judgments made without any evidence or support. I have never heard of ANY problems for Asians at Notre Dame. And right in this thread an Asian student at Notre Dame said point blank he felt right at home and never had any problems at ND.</p>
<p>Of course Notre Dame doesn’t have as many Asians as schools such as Cal Berkeley or Stanford, or even Northwestern and some of the Ivies. Its a Catholic school in the midwest that is not in a metropolitan area. That does not mean that minorities or Asians can’t feel “at home” at ND or that there is a “problem” as froggy speculated out of his hindquarters. Nor does it mean that ND is somehow being deprived of top students simply because its Asian population is not 15-20%, since ND has to turn away thousands of highly qualified students every year regardless of race or ethnic background. The assumption that ND is missing out on highly qualified students because its a school for white Catholics is racist, disengenuous and is a very damaging statement to say about a school’s reputation. The fact that you cannot see those statements for what they are is troubling quite frankly. Froggy is for some reason trying to perpetuate some view of ND as antidiverse and anti-Asian that simply is not supported by facts or reality. I suspect he has an agenda he is not telling us about, or is simply ignorant and speaking out of his rear without thinking. I hope its the latter.</p>
<p>Explain how “surmising that ND isn’t attractive to top students UNLESS they are white Catholics” implies “(and in doing so automatically assumed that all Asians are “top students”, as if there aren’t any average or just above average Asian students).”</p>
<p>I do agree with what I think is your main point, but I’m not really sure because of all the noise from your barking: That ND is a welcoming place for a diversity of students. I do see this attitude in the majority of students I’ve met at ND. But that doesn’t make the ND student body diverse (relative to other top academic schools), and it doesn’t mean that a minority student would necessarily be comfortable in such a minority, especially coming from SCal, and it also doesn’t mean that many top students who are Asian or non-Catholic do not even consider Notre Dame. It also doesn’t mean that an Asian or non-Catholic would be comfortable there, although some (quite a few?) obviously are. </p>
<p>BTW, the “problem” you’re unaware of, the lack of diversity, is apparently a concern for the ND administration. One thing we were told is that the admissions office is active in trying to increase the diversity. </p>
<p>Yeah, that’s funny because I actually took this as a logical response to the fact that Notre Dame only admits TOP students due to its high academic standards. Why would ND be concerned if it’s not an attractive destination for below-average non-Catholic students? The only statement that’s being made is that ND does not exhibit the same level of racial/ethnic diversity as its peers, something which is due in no small part to self-selection among applicants (e.g., many Asians not being Catholic/from the Midwest are therefore not bothering to apply despite its academic prowess). You can personally take that as a positive or negative, but any inferences you might make about the author’s intent are entirely original. </p>
<p>Just from browsing your other work on the forum, you seem to blow small negatives out of proportion and respond in a very hostile and defensive manner. Regardless of whether your mother taught you that you catch more flies with honey and not to say anything if you can’t say something nice, as the brother of someone who has about a 1 in 96 chance of being your RA next year, I would really encourage you to think about how you’re representing the Notre Dame community through some of your comments. My brother loves ND, and I think it would infuriate him, not only to see how poorly thought out your arguments are, but also how you feel the need to insult everyone who disagrees with you. Just something to mull over before you spout off about our implied hatred of ND.</p>
<p>By the way, ALL schools say they want to increase diversity. Have you ever heard a school claim “we DON’T want to increase diversity, in fact, we are specifically going to admit more white students this fall”? LOL.
Come on people, get a clue. Increasing diversity is all well and good as long as the students you are admitting qualify academically. Should ND, or any school, start dumbing down the qualifications to “increase diversity”? And if, in the case of Asians, Asians are self selecting not to apply to ND in great numbers, should ND just go out and grab any old average Asian student just to meet some numeric goal? Think people think. You are being far too simplistic in your outlook. In addition, diversity means a lot of things. Diversity means well rounded students who excel in a lot of areas, who are engaged, social, service oriented, athletic etc. Admitting one dimensional students who have out of this world SATs but can’t carry on a conversation or have no interests outside their computers or books, or who have not exhibited any community service ethic is NOT a way to get a diverse student body. So before one jumps to conclusions about what constitutes a ‘diverse’ student body, maybe one should think about what diversity MEANS for Notre Dame and not just knee jerk a reaction based on nothing but numbers like ol froggy did. Sometimes you need to think outside the box.</p>
<p>The underlying theme for your posts could be “anybody who is not a diehard ND fanboy hates ND”. You seem to have a particular fixation on the supposed anti-ND nature of my posts, despite the fact that a number of others have disagreed with you. Throughout this thread you exhibit the same behavior towards jumpfroggyjump, again, despite a consensus to the contrary. As the evidence starts to build, don’t you think it’s time to reconsider whose bias is really at issue?</p>
<p>Is this the sort of “outside the box” thinking you’re looking for? Don’t know how you missed it, it was “there for all to see in black and white for those intelligent enough to discern it.”</p>
<p>am I the only one who thinks diversity isnt necessarily a huge positive, i dont have anything against minorities its just when the admissions officers start to let less qualified minorities in to increase their diversity its just like who are they trying to show off to with their large numbers of minorities. If (hypothetically im not looking up numbers) 75 % of americans are white, 15% are black, and 5% asian and latino why do top colleges strive to get 25% of each</p>
<p>is it just me, or is there an ironic turn that has taken place in this interesting thread? the OP was not seeking “diversity”, he/she was seeing uniformity in order to remain in his/her comfort zone. </p>
<p>personally, i find a definition of “diversity” as ethnicity myopic and shallow. it is refreshing to me that ND does not, or at least limits its pursuit of this modern-day must-do. to be sure, there is diversity aplenty on the ND campus - one might be more accurate in calling a richness of thought. i have found the PEOPLE at the school much more diverse as PEOPLE in talking with them than most schools. more superficially “diverse” schools have tended to be significantly more homgenous in viewpoint, overall background, orientation of world-view, and PC-related cliche-of-thought than i see in the student body of ND - in fact it is one the main reasons i feel ND is such a wonderful place.</p>
<p>It is just you. The OP is not seeking “uniformity” so much as s/he is seeking a critical mass of people who share a common ethnic or cultural history and background. It doesn’t seem unreasonable for a prospective student to seek his or her own “comfort zone,” which is something the Catholics at ND can take for granted.</p>
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<p>Fortunately, no one is defining “diversity” as such. At least not I: “Diversity isn’t just about racial and ethnic diversity. The problem with ND is that it also lacks cultural, socio-economic and religious diversity.”</p>
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<p>It is highly contentious to argue that students with homogenous racial/ethnic, cultural, socio-economic and religious backgrounds are more likely to to have diverse “viewpoints” and “orientations of world-view.” That flies in the face of common sense. The “PC” bit is a red herring. Not only is it in itself a cliched response, but also it is not at all germane to the present discussion, which is the issue of ND’s “diversity” (or lack thereof).</p>
<p>Prima facie evidence is the racial and ethnic distribution of the student body at ND.</p>
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<p>Assuming this is true (for it could be), this may be all well and good. But what does that have to do with my argument that the overwhelming majority of top minority (including Asian American) prospective students may not find ND to be an attractive destination and thus not apply, let alone enroll at ND?</p>
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<p>ND already “dumbs down” the qualifications for many privileged special interest groups including athletes (especially football players), legacies and wealthy “development admits.” Whose to say that minorities and low-income students are any less “qualified?” Talk about making unwarranted assumptions.</p>
<p>I’ve been reading everyone quibble for 3 pages. Jumpfrog–Do you actually think ND is the <em>only</em> place that lowers the admission bar for development admits, legacies, and athletes. Regarding athletes, I think ND keeps the bar higher than most colleges, and their athlete graduation rate is at the tippy-top.</p>