Asians at Notre Dame?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Notre Dame
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<p>I never said that. But we’re not comparing ND to just any ol’ college, are we? We’re comparing ND to other top colleges. The fact of the matter is, ND has a higher proportion (~25%) of legacy students than any other top 25 school. So unless you can show me evidence that ND has a significantly higher percentage of legacy applicants than other top schools, it stands to reason that the bar for legacies is lower at ND than its peer institutions.</p>

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<p>Admissions standards are not equivalent to graduation rates. Some schools, including ND, can have respectable graduation rates but low admissions bar for athletes. And again, we’re not comparing ND to “most colleges.” We’re comparing ND to its peer institutions. In this respect, ND lags. For example, the following chart shows that in 1997, the average SAT score of the ND football team was 899 (M & V):</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“Cardinal 247 - Stanford Cardinal Football Recruiting”>Cardinal 247 - Stanford Cardinal Football Recruiting]Scout.com[/url</a>]</p>

<p>Admittedly, the SAT scores for ND’s football team have risen greatly since the 1990’s. But this is true of the football teams of other top 25 institutions as well. So ND’s relative position has probably not changed much, if at all. Based on this analysis, the admissions bar for athletes is lower at ND than other top colleges including Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, Vanderbilt, Rice, Virginia, etc., not to mention the Ivies.</p>

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<p>You’ve just proven my point: “ND is not an attractive destination for the overwhelming majority of top students who are not Catholic (including many Asian Americans).” The fact that most Asian Americans are not Catholic brings my point home.</p>

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<p>I thought I already did: [Scout.com[/url</a>]</p>

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<p>Source? Even if this were true (which I doubt), that doesn’t change the fact that the admissions bar is lower for legacies than non-legacies at ND. Just because some ND legacies would’ve gotten into ND without their legacy status doesn’t mean that they don’t get preferential treatment.</p>

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<p>We’re not comparing ND to every other major D1 football program. We’re comparing ND to other D1 programs housed by top 25 institutions such as Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, Vanderbilt, Rice, Virginia, etc.</p>

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<p>“Sons and daughters of graduates make up 10% to 15% of students at most Ivy League schools…At Notre Dame, about 23% of all students are children of graduates.”</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/golden3.htm]WSJ.com”>WSJ.com - Admissions Preferences Given To Alumni Children Draws Fire]WSJ.com</a> - Admissions Preferences Given To Alumni Children Draws Fire](<a href=“Cardinal 247 - Stanford Cardinal Football Recruiting”>Cardinal 247 - Stanford Cardinal Football Recruiting)</p>

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<p>No.</p>

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<p>Plenty of top Catholic-affiliated universities (e.g. Georgetown) have more religious diversity than ND. That is, their non-Catholic students make up significantly more than 15% of the student body.</p>

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<p>Froggy said:
“Plenty of top Catholic-affiliated universities (e.g. Georgetown) have more religious diversity than ND. That is, their non-Catholic students make up significantly more than 15% of the student body.”</p>

<p>Lol. It appears that maybe Georgetown is failing in thier mission to be a pre-eminent CATHOLIC institution of higher learning. See, I can take any negative statement you make about ND and spin it the opposite way. Its really not that hard. You really aren’t being that clever.</p>

<p>You have now posted enough, and my posts have drawn out (purposely I might add) your complete and utter Anti Catholic agenda and bias. I really don’t know what your problem is, or why you are even posting on a Notre Dame thread, but your biases, prejudices and agenda is now plain for all to see. You have a problem with Catholicism and with Notre Dame as a Catholic school. We get it. Congratulations on your fine piece of detective work where you discovered that a large number of Asian students are not practicing Roman Catholics.</p>

<p>For your next assignment, I want you to analyze why there aren’t many handicapped Buddhists who are members of the English Parliament. We will be waiting on pins and needles for your report.</p>

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<p>Froggy: “Even if this were true (which I doubt), that doesn’t change the fact that the admissions bar is lower for legacies than non-legacies at ND”.</p>

<p>SOURCE? Prove it. Call up the admissions office and ask for the GPA, class rank and SAT/ACT scores of legacy admissions vs nonlegacy. You are simply speculating out of your arse again. The difference is not significant, if at all.</p>

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<p>“Notre Dame wants to enroll better and better qualified students every year, as measured by standardized test scores, grade-point averages and the like…But the University doesn’t want to risk losing critical future donations from well-heeled benefactors by not accepting their children…”</p>

<p>“But the University also wants to satisfy the desire of many of its alumni – an overwhelmingly Caucasian and homogenous group – to see their children follow in their footsteps.”</p>

<p>“However, the University has a long way to go to catch up with other elite universities that say they value diversity.”</p>

<p>[The</a> Admissions Balancing Act // News // Notre Dame Magazine // University of Notre Dame](<a href=“http://magazine.nd.edu/news/14874-admit-by-numbers-the-admission-balancing-act/]The”>http://magazine.nd.edu/news/14874-admit-by-numbers-the-admission-balancing-act/)</p>

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<p>My previous statement precludes such an assumption: “Just because some ND legacies would’ve gotten into ND without their legacy status doesn’t mean that they don’t get preferential treatment.”</p>

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<p>When did I assume this? That said, this may be true for some ND athletes (especially football players).</p>

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<p>ahem . . . . </p>

<p>" Originally Posted by bitti1
is it just me, or is there an ironic turn that has taken place in this interesting thread? the OP was not seeking “diversity”, he/she was seeing uniformity in order to remain in his/her comfort zone. </p>

<p>It is just you. The OP is not seeking “uniformity” so much as s/he is seeking a critical mass of people who share a common ethnic or cultural history and background. It doesn’t seem unreasonable for a prospective student to seek his or her own “comfort zone,” which is something the Catholics at ND can take for granted.</p>

<p>which one is it, froggy ?? a “critical mass” or a “reasonable goal” ?? you can’t have it both ways. the FACT is the OP stated for him/herself they were looking for uniformity and the comfort it provided.</p>

<p>Quote:
Originally Posted by bitti1
personally, i find a definition of “diversity” as ethnicity myopic and shallow. </p>

<p>Fortunately, no one is defining “diversity” as such. At least not I: “Diversity isn’t just about racial and ethnic diversity. The problem with ND is that it also lacks cultural, socio-economic and religious diversity.”</p>

<p>this is simply untrue. you pulled it out of where ??</p>

<p>Quote:
Originally Posted by bitti1
i have found the PEOPLE at the school much more diverse as PEOPLE in talking with them than most schools. more superficially “diverse” schools have tended to be significantly more homgenous in viewpoint, overall background, orientation of world-view, and PC-related cliche-of-thought than i see in the student body of ND </p>

<p>It is highly contentious to argue that students with homogenous racial/ethnic, cultural, socio-economic and religious backgrounds are more likely to to have diverse “viewpoints” and “orientations of world-view.” That flies in the face of common sense. The “PC” bit is a red herring. Not only is it in itself a cliched response, but also it is not at all germane to the present discussion, which is the issue of ND’s “diversity” (or lack thereof). </p>

<p>again, you start from a flawed presupposition. ND is a world-wide brand, and draws internationally and nationally. it is just as germain to take the view that ND creates a level playing field for students of any background, and allows them to interact. there is PLENTY of draw for students to ND other then it being a catholic school. the room i will be visiting this weekend held a very wealthy buddhist from korea, and atheist from a poor income family, and two protestants. that random sample fits your erred cookie-cutter view of ND how, exactly ?? marquette is a jesuit school - do you ascribe the same flawed presuppositions to marquette as you do ND ?? if not, why not ?? or, are you going to try and say a school like berkeley, or yale does not attract a homogenous world-view student body ( despite their superficially “diverse” appearances ) ?? THAT flys in the face of common sense - not to mention at age 21, also displays a woeful lack of experience in the world which by itself is harmless enough but when harnessed to your motor-driven but thoughtless agenda is a disturbing thing.</p>

<p>why are you on this board? ND is not for everybody - don’t go there. but to come on here spouting a bunch of malarkey like you seem driven to do is trully a mystery. since you lack validity of any sort, what exactly is your point/purpose ??</p>

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<p>Don’t feed the ■■■■■. We already know he didn’t go to ND. Or should we demand PROOF?!</p>

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<p>Contrary to Shankapotamus’ claim, anecdotes do not prove anything “in spades”. This whole thread is much ado about nothing. Some posters have discussed how Notre Dame lacks ethnic/racial diversity. This has invited quivering rage from others. Why don’t we step back and look at this statistically? Someone show me the racial minority stats for ND vs. other top schools and then we can agree whether or not ND exhibits racial diversity on the level of its peer schools. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is completely a matter of PERSONAL JUDGMENT.</p>

<p>We can do the same for religion. ND is about 85% Catholic. Would it be reasonable to suppose that a top student, someone who might be drawn to ND simply because of its academic reputation, would not feel comfortable being in such a small religious minority? Certainly that’s a scenario that has played out many times on these boards.</p>

<p>We could turn to geographic diversity, although statistics on this are hard to come by. Presumably, with ND’s nationwide (or translate Catholic from the Greek, universal) draw they would rank right up there with their peer schools.</p>

<p>Onto socio-economics. I don’t remember the exact stat, but my brother mentioned that during freshman year he was told roughly 70% of students come from households with $100k+ in income. Top schools across the country have broadened their efforts to reach low income students, but having once glanced at Pell Grant statistics by school, I would imagine that ND is right in there with its peer schools in this category. Is it possible that a poor kid who’s a great student could get turned off at the idea of spending four years with a bunch of rich kids? Absolutely.</p>

<p>Let’s not forget political diversity. A number of studies have shown that most top colleges are very liberal. Notre Dame has a pretty moderate, well-divided student body. In this case, high marks for diversity as it’s just about as diverse as you can get.</p>

<p>If we’re going to talk about some measures of diversity, I think these represent a pretty accurate snapshot of Notre Dame. What you make of them is a matter of individual preference. Jumpfroggyjump seems to place particular emphasis on religious and socio-economic diversity. I personally value geographic diversity quite highly. Can a person be comfortable in a situation where they constitute a small minority? Sure. Is it reasonable to think that someone might pick a school that has a large amount of people similar to him/her? Of course. So I don’t understand what all the fuss is about. I really don’t think any of the early posters exhibited any particularly egregrious, anti-ND, anti-Catholic bias in their comments on the state of diversity at Notre Dame, thus it’s somewhat shocking to see people jump all over the slightest perceived negative.</p>

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<p>The “fuss” is about the negative, biased, subjective statements littered throughout this thread such as “Notre Dame’s problem”, “the problem with Notre Dame”, “Notre Dame is not attractive to top students [who are not white Catholics]” “Notre Dame lacks diversity”, “if you are not a white Catholic you won’t feel at home at ND” and still my favorite “Notre Dame lacks religious diversity” by someone who clearly has a very pronounced anti Catholic bias/prejudice and agenda and who has spun in every possible way very meaningless and harmless stats into a negative light as if there is something inferior about Notre Dame, both academically and as a premier institution of higher learning as a whole. Notre Dame is one of the top 10 “dream schools” and a top 10 rated choice by student preference ratings. The attempt to cast ND as having “a problem” or continually spin it in a negative light, as if the fact that most Asians are not Catholic constitues some kind of negative issue or problem that ND needs to rectify is the reason for the fuss. Is that too difficult for you Harvard types to get?</p>

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<p>And I am still waiting for the answer to this:</p>

<p>For your next assignment, I want you to analyze why there aren’t many handicapped Buddhists who are members of the English Parliament. We will be waiting on pins and needles for your report.</p>

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<p>Shankapotamus- pretend for one second that jumpfroggyjump is not a raging anti-Catholic who frequently burns churches and uses a picture of the Blessed Mother as a dartboard. Now, do you think given that Notre Dame’s student population is roughly 85% Catholic, that it would be fair to say that it is not particularly religiously diverse?</p>

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<p>You like to rant about how others pale in comparison to your intelligence, yet you struggle to answer a simple question. I think somewhere in there amidst the saliva and hot air was the answer to what I was asking: “Notre Dame is not religiously diverse”. Does this somehow make me anti-Catholic if I say that? Actually, you said seem to think it’s a rather obvious statement. So why when someone else says it does it mean that they have an anti-Catholic bias/agenda? You’ll have to explain it to me since I didn’t get into Holy Cross like you.</p>

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<p>Thank God I know you’re not a product of Notre Dame. </p>

<p>So let’s skip to the chase. Since you said there’s nothing groundbreaking about saying that ND isn’t religiously diverse, what about someone else saying it in this forum makes them anti-Catholic? How is a statement like that in any way indicative of an anti-Catholic bias? You yourself agreed, so how is that simple observation somehow, possibly negative?</p>

<p>Oh, in case you hadn’t figured it out yet, I’m looking for, how would you say?, ah yes, PROOF of some of our fellow posters’ anti-Catholic biases. Do you think I exhibit anti-papist sentiments?</p>

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<p>there is another issue, veritas. the idea that “catholic” holds some sort of ethnic or cultural group-think is simply not borne out in modern life. as i pointed out previously, many schools are jesuit or catholic, . . . i pointed out marquette, another person duke. vandy has a religious founding, if i am not mistaken - but these schools will and do not rankle people and have that “issue” brought to the fore as does ND. why ?? voodoo has catholic roots. and the world is full of socio-polictical persons in various states of lapsed catholic status that span every possible world-view. indeed your own geo-centric idea is far far more meaningful, as are many others. </p>

<p>as you state so well, in most real-life areas of a non-superficial nature, ND is easily as diverse as any top 20 university. ironically, a person need only look past the superficial modern definitions of “diversity” to see this is so. or indeed, actually go there, know the school and its students as compared to other top schools ( a fair way to judge a reailty, be it anecdotal or not ). </p>

<p>i am with you 100% on the bizarre nature of this thread, as compared with the OP’s question, and stated preference to be in a place where he/she would feel in his/her comfort zone around a larger body of asians. in the grandest irony of all, in the OP’s case the case for “diversity” points clearly toward him/her attending ND, and yet he/she is seeking anything but that.</p>

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<p>I thought now would be a good time to repeat the wise words of an actual Asian student at ND who posted this on the first page to lend some reality to the issue again, to counter the negative, biased subjective spin some people have tried to cast on this issue: </p>

<p>“There are plenty of Asian-Americans and Asians around at ND. I mean, it isn’t the most diverse campus, but it is actually a lot more diverse than most people give it credit for. Also, it’d be good to broaden your horizons in terms of associating with and being comfortable with people of all ethnicities. I’m an Asian-American from NY and I thought that I’d feel out of place at ND. I didn’t. Some of my friends have expressed similar sentiments”</p>

<p>Ahhh, its like a breath of fresh spring air, isn’t it?</p>

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<p>The two are not mutually exclusive.</p>

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<p>Are you denying that ND is more racially, ethnically, culturally, socio-economically, religiously, etc. homogeneous than its peer institutions?</p>

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<p>It is safe to assume that people with similar backgrounds tend to have similar points of view. There is nothing “flawed” about this presupposition.</p>

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<p>Random anecdotal experiences are not meaningful. That said, I bet there are more “wealthy Buddhists from Korea,” “atheists from poor income families” and Protestants at other top 25 universities than ND.</p>

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<p>How on earth are Berkeley and Yale “superficially” diverse? Granted, Berkeley lacks geographic diversity; state law mandates that Berkeley enrolls a certain percentage of Californian residents. But ND is under no (legal) obligation to be religiously homogeneous. And are you seriously suggesting that Berkeley and Yale are not more racially, ethnically and culturally diverse than ND? Not to mention, Berkeley and Yale are more socio-economically diverse than ND as well; in the case of Berkeley, much more. A Berkeley student is more than 3X as likely to receive Pell Grants as an ND student. For Californian state residents, Berkeley’s tuition is about half the price of ND’s. Due to its broad-based FA policy, Yale is basically free for students whose family income is $60K or under. Also, Yale is more affordable for the middle class than ND insofar as Yale students with parents who make no more than $150K or so are likely to receive some form of financial aid.</p>

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<p>Why not?</p>

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<p>While Duke is affiliated with the Methodist Church, it is an essentially secular university. (For instance, its student body is not 85% Methodist.) Vanderbilt has no religious affiliation.</p>

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<p>Not even close.</p>

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<p>most annoying thread ever on CC.</p>

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<p>yet you probably read all the way through it, lol.</p>

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<p>My eyes hurt from reading this! But I guess someone answered the ORIGINAL question!</p>