<p>Shank: regarding "yet you probably read all the way through it, lol. "</p>
<p>Sadly yes , but skipped major portions of the pi$$ing match.</p>
<p>I hope you are not like this in real life , you would be friendless.
I read threads on CC to pick up information for a future potential applicant , but once in a while you stumble upon juvenile egos battles like this…</p>
<p>Sorry Brave Ulysses, no one has a gun to your head I hope. We can’t all be shills for Villanova you know. When someone spins negative and false information based on lack of knowledge, biases and prejudices, I call them out. I am direct and have little tolerance for BS. So, if you don’t like that, I would suggest just moving on to the next thread.</p>
<p>Please understand that Shank is not representative of the Notre Dame student body. No ND students except Shank has been posting annoying posts in this thread. I guess most of them are taking a break after finals…</p>
<p>What’s the Beef?</p>
<p>Percent Asian Students
Notre Dame - 9%
Boston College - 11%
Georgetown - 9%</p>
<p>Shank:Geez , get over yourself.</p>
<p>If the average ND alum were like you , I would strongly discourage anyone from applying to ND.
Good luck in the real world , you will get your a$$ kicked often if you are like this in real life.
I’m sure ND alums and administrators would be embarrased that you are representing the school in such a disrespectful manner.</p>
<p>Ok , now do a search , read all my posts , and reply with some condescending abusive comment , if it makes you feel better.Then call your therapist.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>These stats are irrelevant to controversial claims made by ND students/alumni/parents such as the following: </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And if this thread is any indication, those associated with ND do not seem to regard Boston College as a peer institution: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-notre-dame/926701-notre-dame-cross-admit-preference-numbers.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-notre-dame/926701-notre-dame-cross-admit-preference-numbers.html</a></p>
<p>It is obvious that some ND students and alums are arguing that their school is as diverse as the Ivies, Stanford, MIT, etc., which is what I find untenable and unconvincing.</p>
<p>Sorry, BU, I am not going to stoop to your level and rip off personal insults for simply expressing your opinion. I’ll take the high road.</p>
<p>“It is obvious that some ND students and alums are arguing that their school is as diverse as the Ivies, Stanford, MIT, etc., which is what I find untenable and unconvincing”</p>
<p>Who made that argument? It certainly wasn’t me.</p>
<p>Shank, it couldn’t have been you, because you are apparently neither an ND student or an alum. It was a relief for me to figure this out, because your vitriolic tendency and illogical thought process isn’t at all representative of the ND students and alum I know. </p>
<p>It’s a shame this thread has gone where it has, because I think there is a good discussion that could be had around the diversity question. Such as … Ought Notre Dame be actively trying to increase diversity to more closely mirror other top schools? If so, what type(s) of diversity? And a key question … Can Notre Dame maintain its sense of identity, a core element of what so many kids love about ND, if diversity is increased? For instance, if the administration is active in seeking out and enrolling more highly academically qualified non-Catholics, such as Asians, will it change the character of the school in that many Catholic kids are at ND in no small part because they value being able to exercise their faith without being ridiculed for doing so? I think this is just the kind of concern the administration is wrestling with in regard to rankings such as USNWR.</p>
<p>I figured that out, too, when I perceived his unnatural aggressive attitude. Bin Laden is more reasonable than him…</p>
<p>@tjd:I really think Notre Dame should remain to its Catholic mission, which makes it Notre Dame. This institution is great because its Catholic mission unites people and maintains a sense of purpose on campus. In fact, I found that Notre Dame is more diverse than a lot of universities of its caliber: whereas u can be ridiculed for being a republican or a Christian at the Ivies, u are welcome to express ur beliefs here at Notre Dame. In addition, when Notre Dame says “inclusion”, it really means it. When I visited the campus, I found a lot of support for Non-Catholic students and a wide spectrum of clubs and organizations in which students can find their niches. </p>
<p>About diversity, I think that Notre Dame should only increase the diversity that strengthens the Catholic nature of the school. I do believe there are bad diversity and good diversity. Bad diversity often dilutes the mission and unity of organizations as well as impedes the decision making process while good diversity often adds values to organizations and is built on the very purposes for the existence of these organizations. Should the Society of Black Engineers ever try to recruit white people? Should jazz bands accept rappers? </p>
<p>I dont really care about rankings. I just know that Notre Dame has a supportive community in which I will thrive. Seeing the successes of their alumni, I dont have any doubts about the value of a Notre Dame education.<br>
Btw, I’m an Asian. :)</p>
<p>Prptruong, I’d agree with you that ND is accepting of a diversity of viewpoints. I guess my concern, having a D there who came from a very diverse high school, is whether ND actually has representation of a diversity of viewpoints? Certainly there are different types of diversity, but is ND a reasonable representative of the general population in many of them? Racially, culturally, politically, economically, religiously diverse? Should it be more so? </p>
<p>I don’t know the answer, but I expect that the administration is struggling with finding the balance between striving to be a great academic university and a great Catholic university. You don’t have to look very far to find evidence of that struggle … last year’s commencement speaker, Pres. Obama. It’s the same conflict … invite the best you can get, or the best that fit within the “mission of the university”. Think of the uproar over that invitation to realize how difficult it can be to find that balance. </p>
<p>The new Hesburgh-Yusko scholarships are another opportunity to define the path forward … should they be used to recruit the best scholars ND can find, or the best Catholic scholars? </p>
<p>FWIW, I think that Notre Dame would be best served to continue to aspire to be the “best Catholic university in the world”. I’ll paraphrase something I once read that expresses this well. “With enough money, time, and effort, Notre Dame could become an academic equivalent of Harvard. However, Harvard could never become the equivalent of Notre Dame”.</p>
<p>In regards to your post, tjd, you have very valid points that I’m sure is discussed with the admissions board at Notre Dame. This is what separates it from other nonsectarian universities that simply choose the most promising students while Notre Dame must also balance this with its Catholicism or else it would lose this and become like other nonsectarian universities. Whether good or bad, this is what happens and probably will continue to happen as long as the school remains open.</p>
<p>Compared with an average high school however, I can say that Notre Dame probably has at least some students from any given perspective, but number-wise, there is an overwhelming majority of students hailing from only one viewpoint. The stereotype of the rich white kid with alums as parents comes to mind when thinking about Notre Dame. I believe this is one of the reasons Notre Dame tries to increase diversity in order to shatter this stereotype of their students. They are giving an honest effort to do so and really want to diversify the campus in order to better the school, and not merely to make it “look good” stat-wise.</p>
<p>As mentioned before, Notre Dame is more homogeneous relative to other comparable institutions and this is a simple fact. Out of all the top universities, I would argue that Notre Dame is the least diverse ethnically, religiously and politically. So the true questions to be asked is why is this?</p>
<p>Is this the result of the school’s effort to establish a homogeneous mix of students they believe further the mission of the school? Or is it the other way around, and despite the school’s effort to diversify, Notre Dame’s deeply rooted traditions may simply cause top students who would bring diversity to shy away from it?</p>
<p>Of these two, I’m sure it is not purely one or the other, but still, one must be a dominating factor. Only when this is determined can the problem be solved if there is even a problem.</p>
<p>It all comes down to the roots of the school’s missions and plans for itself.</p>
<p>Its not a “problem”. Its a Catholic school. Catholic schools who are really trying to stay true to its mission as a Catholic school are going to attract mostly Catholics. That doesn’t mean other students cannot thrive. That doesn’t mean Asians (or any other minority) will be uncomfortable. It does mean that many Jewish and Asian students, as well as fundamentalist conservative Protestant Christians, won’t apply to Notre Dame in as great of numbers as they would at nonsectarian schools. That does not mean its a “problem”. Its simply a balancing act.</p>
<p>“The stereotype of the rich white kid with alums as parents comes to mind when thinking about Notre Dame.”</p>
<p>Some 50% of students receive financial aid. This year’s entering class is more than 20% nonwhite. And more than three quarters of students are not legacies. The stereotype isn’t representative of the typical student.</p>
<p>“Out of all the top universities, I would argue that Notre Dame is the least diverse ethnically, religiously and politically.”</p>
<p>Well, let’s consider that point. Take politics. How many other top 20 universities had a substantial number of students who did NOT vote for Obama? On how many other campuses would the presence of Obama as commencement speaker have been as controversial? Most top schools are havens for Democratic, left-wing politics; with conservative students a tiny and marginalized minority. Notre Dame is the only top school with a balance of liberal and conservative viewpoints. </p>
<p>Then take “ethnicity.” Berkeley is more than 40% Asian. Does that make it “more” diverse than Notre Dame? Or less so, since whites (especially Irish Catholics), blacks, and Hispanics are therefore under-represented? Is the most “ethnically diverse” student body the one that has the greatest diversity in skin tone, or the one that most closely represents the ethnic and racial makeup of the country’s population? </p>
<p>On religious diversity – you’ve got that one. Notre Dame is a Catholic school, not just a school that was founded by Catholics but that has faded away into secularism. But Catholics are arguably an incredibly diverse bunch, encompassing every possible skin tone, socioeconomic background, and political viewpoint. I would argue that Catholics, as a group, are far more “diverse” than, say, Jews or Muslims.</p>
<p>“Some 50% of students receive financial aid. This year’s entering class is more than 20% nonwhite. And more than three quarters of students are not legacies. The stereotype isn’t representative of the typical student.”</p>
<p>I am not saying it is representative, but it exists. Stereotypes are generalizations made whether true or not. This is the reason why the school works so hard to create diversity because they want to get rid of this stereotype.</p>
<p>Some schools have a lot more conservative students than you think, but while you’re right to say Notre Dame probably has more of a divide on that political issue.</p>
<p>“Notre Dame is the only top school with a balance of liberal and conservative viewpoints.”</p>
<p>I think it is far from balanced. It is simply reversed from most other top schools. But it is good in that conservative students have a place to go where they are not the minority.</p>
<p>"Then take “ethnicity.” Berkeley is more than 40% Asian. Does that make it “more” diverse than Notre Dame? Or less so, since whites (especially Irish Catholics), blacks, and Hispanics are therefore under-represented? Is the most “ethnically diverse” student body the one that has the greatest diversity in skin tone, or the one that most closely represents the ethnic and racial makeup of the country’s population? "</p>
<p>I think diversity is one that equally represents the most amount of ethnicity. This is so that you can’t just have one person from each race and suddenly become diverse. I also don’t think that matching the population’s demographics constitutes to being diverse because while overall, the nation is fairly diverse, different areas of the nation are not diverse at all. Many regions have very homogeneous mixes of people that happen to be different from those of a different region and so when the demographics are pieced together, we appear to be diverse when it is more of a quilt than a melting pot.</p>
<p>"Then take “ethnicity.” Berkeley is more than 40% Asian. Does that make it “more” diverse than Notre Dame? Or less so, since whites (especially Irish Catholics), blacks, and Hispanics are therefore under-represented? Is the most “ethnically diverse” student body the one that has the greatest diversity in skin tone, or the one that most closely represents the ethnic and racial makeup of the country’s population? "</p>
<p>Yes, Berkeley is still more diverse than Notre Dame.</p>
<p>Berkeley Demographics
African American
4 %
Asian American
42 %
Hispanic
12 %
Native American
0 %
White
33 %
Other
8 %</p>
<p>Notre Dame Demographics
African American
4 %
Asian American
7 %
Hispanic
9 %
Native American
1 %
White
78 %</p>
<p>At Berkeley, there is a balance between the Caucasian and Asian population with a minor majority of Asians.</p>
<p>At Notre Dame however, there is an overwhelming majority of Caucasians.</p>
<p>And American demographics:</p>
<p>White 75%
Hispanic 15%
Black 12%
Asian 4%
Other 5%</p>
<p>Notre Dame’s student body is actually far more representative of the nation as a whole than is Berkeley. Berkeley is not “more diverse” than Notre Dame. It’s just considerably more Asian.</p>
<p>" “Notre Dame is the only top school with a balance of liberal and conservative viewpoints.”</p>
<p>I think it is far from balanced. It is simply reversed from most other top schools."</p>
<p>The student body was fairly evenly split in the 2008 mock election. If there is an overwhelming majority of Republicans or conservatives in the student body, they are flying well below the radar.</p>
<p>“I am not saying it is representative, but it exists. Stereotypes are generalizations made whether true or not. This is the reason why the school works so hard to create diversity because they want to get rid of this stereotype.”</p>
<p>Stereotypes exist because of ignorance. Perpetuated by people like you and other posters on this thread that don’t know any better, and thus repeat stereotypes they know nothing about. That is one reason I have been so outspoken and strident in this thread----to kill the stereotype that people like you and froggy etc perpetuate about ND’s alleged lack of diversity, or that it is somehow a problem.</p>
<p>I know from personal experience how diverse politically Notre Dame is. For instance, I am an outspoken liberal, far to the left of the mainstream. Yes, there are a lot of conservatives at Notre Dame, especially the business school types. But there is a very large percentage of students dedicated to social justice who are very liberal, great social justice Catholics who are incredible in their advocacy of left of center causes, social justice, civil rights etc. That is what makes Notre Dame so special.</p>
<p>Having just graduated I’d just like to say that it’s what you make of it where ever you attend college.</p>
<p>The racial make up of Notre Dame is more white than many other universities. No one can deny that, but it doesn’t mean that there aren’t cultural interactions. I had a roommate from Kenya. I’m being hosted in Manila by friends from Notre Dame this summer. I dated a Mexican girl from Texas. I’ve asked for recommendations from a Jewish professor, a Muslim professor and a Catholic priest. I was an assistant ESL teacher at Notre Dame’s neighborhood community center; students were from Lebanon, Iran, Liberia, Rwanda, Russia, Poland, Serbia, Korea, Japan, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Mexico and more. The valedictorian this year was a Catholic Social Tradition minor, even though she’s a non-Catholic black woman from the hell that is Gary, Indiana. Even the atheists at Notre Dame are welcome; they staged a University-sponsored debate between Christopher Hitchens and Dinesh D’Souza in April that sold out in less than an hour. I know one atheist who sings in a chapel choir because he enjoys the music. I’m Catholic but I think the coolest people on campus are Protestants. The (probably Hindu) Indian students who play cricket on South Quad are cool to watch too. We had Bob Barr and Barack Obama on campus in the same year, go figure.</p>
<p>I doubt that any of that is unique to Notre Dame. You might find it any where. Just don’t assume that there is no worth while diversity at Notre Dame. I for one, am glad to know that where ever I go now, whether in the United States from Boston, New York, Philadelphia and Washington to Miami, Tampa, Atlanta, Savannah and New Orleans, to the hills of Appalachia to Phoenix, Vegas, LA, San Francisco, Seattle and Denver I have friends there. And when I go to Manila or Seoul; Kinshasa, Nairobi or Cairo; Dublin, Rome or Vienna; or (perhaps best of all) La Paz or Caracas, I’ll know Domers there too. And when I go to a city where I don’t have friends, I’ll have one of 275, or however many there are now, alumni clubs. </p>
<p>Even if none of that mattered the fact still remains that Notre Dame graduates over 90% of minority, non-Catholic students. I believe that bests most universities’ overall graduation rates and certainly their minority graduation rates. So, if Asians or some other group don’t feel comfortable they aren’t transfering out, they’re graduating and becoming doctors and engineers. However, I believe it’s more likely that they are part of the family, just like everyone else, regardless of skin color or religion or place of birth.</p>
<p>bpayne1</p>
<p>Thanks for the post. Son was just pulled off of the waitlist after many stress filled weeks of not knowing his fate. He attended last summers ND Scholars program and was given the opportunity to meet many people from diverse cultures around the globe. It changed his life in many ways - all for the good. The “melting pot” of diversity in cultures should continue to be at the Notre Dame forefront. It wil be a very sincere stretch for our family to supply the tuition support he will need at ND but we know the experiences like you have mentioned as a graduate will be worth it. Thanks again for some great insight as to what this University is all about!</p>