<p>drb, Well, how about people who maintain GPA = 4.0 with as many Honors classes as possible and good number of credit hours every semester, but still have and pursue a lot of interests outside of their major, which they are also extremely fascinated by? There are people who found out early in their lives that wide range of interest is actually very helpful with their major interest. Rounded person has easier time connecting to other people and more creative and analytical in everything that they are doing because they see it from many angles.</p>
<p>I have no issue with that, although I would dispute the glib "more creative and analytical" statement - you have data for this? And the "GPA = 4.0 with as many Honors classes as possible" is also inconsistent with the aim to "not want to spend time on physics beyond absolute minimum required by Med. school". Again, as a physician, I think that the "broad categories of experiences (i.e. community service, leadership) that med schools love" should include extraordinary academic excellence, even if the applicant has only one club listed.</p>
<p>I actually was describing my D who happen not being interested in Physics / Math, both of which have been her easier classes. There are classes that are more challenging for her but she really enjoy them. Next semester (fall, junior year) she is planning to take 2 difficult classes + Physics + class in her minor. I was researching if she absolutely need to take calculus-based physics, which will take more time vs non-calculus physics. 2 classes that she think might be difficult are Animal Physiology (for her major) and Abnormal Psychology (for her minor). She wants to maintain high GPA, continue working and participating in med. research. She has been taking a lot of Honors, but primarily in Bio and others of her interest.</p>
<p>Hey PrincessND, </p>
<p>This is a great forum, I myself have a lot of questions for you. </p>
<p>I am going to be a freshmen next year in college, and I was wondering do you think language skill also add a lot toward my resume for Med's school? I know three languages fluently and I am certainly studying my fourth one (Spanish) in high school for a few years now, I also plan to Major in Spanish, maybe double major in biology, minor in Japanese, while taking Pre-med course. I am working as a Nursing assistant to get familiar with the Medical setting. How am I doing with building my resume and my characteristic for Medical School? Also, what kind of activity do you suggest for me to do while I'm in college? And last how much impact do you think job shadowing doctors over sea looks? (I am going to China this summer for a month to job shadow two doctor at a hospital). </p>
<p>Thank you so much!</p>
<p>MDAP:</p>
<p>I understand. And, as I said, there is plenty to be done in medicine by a capable person who is not interested in physics. But there is also plenty to be done by someone who is, even if they cannot juggle. </p>
<p>I teach med students at an elite med school. They are invariably bright and hard-working. They are rarely brilliant. I am dismayed by the oft-repeated advice on this forum that GPA is all-important, rather than actual scholarship.</p>
<p>Hey MiamiDAP,
Maybe calculus-based physics isn't required. I would check with her premed advisor about medschool requirements. My college required premeds to take calculus-based physics, but maybe it's different at other schools. Sorry for any confusion.</p>
<p>Thanks PND. I told D. to check it out again. </p>
<p>Going back to Merit $$, do you know any others besides Mayo and Vandy? How to research this? Currently, we are interested in Case Western, U of M, Ohio State, U of Cinci.</p>
<p>Drb,
I don't think I've implied at all that one doesn't have to be academically talented to get into medical school; I can point out several posts where I've emphasized that academics should be a priority. You mention that you think GPA should be deemphasized, yet in your example, you say you would want a doc who graduated "summa with great test scores". While I agree that GPA is an imperfect marker of academic talent, what else would you use? </p>
<p>Medical school admissions is as competitive as it's ever been, and many students are looking for ways to set themselves apart from equally talented applicants. To those students, I gave the examples that you named. Hopefully students understand that starting a juggling club is not by itself a strong demonstration of leadership. Many students develop committees, start their own charities, do Teach for America, etc. </p>
<p>With the push toward more patient-centered medicine, different qualities are valued in medical students now than in the past. Patients have told us time and time again what kind of doctors they want: compassionate, caring, capable professionals. Medical schools are looking for these qualities, and applicants need to have demonstrated them. They can be exemplified in many ways, and that's what I hope I've conveyed. </p>
<p>I find it troublesome whenever older physicians frequently criticize medical students as not being capable. Was everyone you went to school with "brilliant"? I just checked the website and the average MCAT score of a student at my medical school in 2008 was a 36, the average GPA a 3.8, with most students coming from excellent undergraduate schools with good reputations. Clearly these are people who have mastered balance. Not only would they take care of you in the ICU, they'd be working to solve the healthcare crisis in their spare time, working with community leaders in underserved areas to improve access to care, managing their research labs, teaching students as you do, etc. And they may even do some juggling on the side. :)</p>
<p>Sorry to bombard you with numerous questions. You just mentioned that "MCAT score of a student at my medical school in 2008 was a 36". Well, how difficult / reasonable / easy to get MCAT=27 ? Would you consider 36 a reasonable requirement for elite med. school ?</p>
<p>Hi again Miami,
Looks like we are on at the same time. Looks like you're applying all over Ohio. I just found this article on the Cleveland Clinic SOM that says they give each student a full tuition scholarship, so you may want to look into that.
Cleveland</a> Clinic Medical School To Offer No-Cost Education For Students Pursuing Academic Careers</p>
<p>I haven't been able to locate any centralized info on this. Maybe that will be a special project for me. If you have not done so, buy this book:
<a href="https://services.aamc.org/publications/index.cfm?fuseaction=Product.displayForm&prd_id=226&prv_id=276&cfid=1&cftoken=3E93D52E-B252-0F00-8AF33E23A377590A%5B/url%5D">https://services.aamc.org/publications/index.cfm?fuseaction=Product.displayForm&prd_id=226&prv_id=276&cfid=1&cftoken=3E93D52E-B252-0F00-8AF33E23A377590A</a></p>
<p>It is often called the bible of med school admissions. It also gives you the approximate debt of graduates from each school. You can probably safely assume that those schools whose students graduate with less debt give more financial aid. Of course if I were your daughter, I'd research every school I applied to anyways.</p>
<p>Shouldn't people preparing to apply this summer for 2010 wait until next month and pick up the new MSAR?</p>
<p>
[quote]
You mention that you think GPA should be deemphasized, yet in your example, you say you would want a doc who graduated "summa with great test scores". While I agree that GPA is an imperfect marker of academic talent, what else would you use?
[/quote]
I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, this student did something other than have a high GPA in order to graduate summa. My concern regarding GPA is the frequent recommendation to maximize it at the expense of taking challenging courses, going to the best university, etc. And my main point is to object to the resume-mongering that is apparently considered obligatory for med school admission, rather than scholarship.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Many students develop committees, start their own charities, do Teach for America, etc.
[/quote]
To me, the dedication and ability to graduate summa, or achieve comparable academic excellence, should be as valued.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I find it troublesome whenever older physicians frequently criticize medical students as not being capable.
[/quote]
I did not say this. I am sure the students I teach will be competent physicians. I am also sure that this class would benefit from a few more students whose undergraduate focus was purely academic accomplishment, even if it required calculus.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>If med schools chose to reward students for taking tough courseloads, then students would naturally do so.</p></li>
<li><p>If you look at the data (MCAT score and college GPA), the entering class of med school students this year is stronger academically than ever before. So, it's not so much that academics isn't being emphasized.</p></li>
<li><p>But, there are so many strong academic applicants that med schools can afford to be choosy in assembling their med school class. That's why being a culinary chef or starting your own juggling club can get you into med school (especially the top med schools). Older physicians tend to emphasize the technical aspects of practicing medicine but the trend in medical education has been to cut the time spent on teaching science and devote more time to things like social/communication skills (which are demonstrated by activities like starting your own club or taking a few humanities courses). </p></li>
<li><p>As long as my physician passed the boards and did residency at a decent program, I don't really care whether they took calc-based physics or not when they were an undergrad. I would actually prefer a physician with decent communication skills and less paternalism (which many of the older physicians tend to be).</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Hey somemom,
Yeah, it would help to have the most current version.</p>
<p>This is where we differ. For many aspects of medicine, communication skills are paramount. For others, such as managing a physiologic train wreck in the ICU, interpreting the significance of a DNA sequence variant in my spouse's BRCA1 gene, inventing a novel application of MRI, or performing GPS-guided brain surgery, I would prefer the ministrations of someone whose training emphasized the "technical aspects of practicing medicine". And I would also hope that a medical school would find room for the student whose only interest is in mastering these, and not in being a chef as well.</p>
<p>
[quote]
being a culinary chef or starting your own juggling club
[/quote]
Just for the record, I think starting a juggling club would be basically worthless in medical school admissions. This is not a normative claim -- I'm not saying it should or should not be valued -- but I'm almost certain that it would not actually be.</p>
<hr>
<p>Being a culinary chef (and by this I assume that he's studied in the premiere culinary schools in the world and could serve as the head chef at a four-star restaurant) probably would.</p>
<p>Hey Miami,
The MCAT is notoriously difficult, and some students with really good grades still have trouble with it. A 27 would be challenging for most students. A 36 is probably in the neighborhood of the average for most "top" med schools...of course you'll see this on when you get the MSAR. But it also important to take this opportunity to say, again, that no matter where you go to med school, you will be a doctor...and that is the end goal after all. </p>
<p>I highly recommend taking a prep course, but some students don't find these as helpful. I took the Kaplan course and it forced me to study for the MCAT during my junior year. I also found the 5 practice tests I took before the test really helped me with pacing.</p>
<p>Hey guys,
I understand there's an ideological debate going on here about what types of skills are valuable in physicians, but can we move the debate to a different forum so this one can remain about advice to students....</p>
<p>BTW...the juggling thing was an example, hopefully no one is taking that too literally. Geez.</p>
<p>Princess -- NCG pointed out to me once that the MSAR medians are the medians among admitted students, not among eventual matriculants. For that reason, I prefer to use the USN means (x3, of course) when finding an average MCAT score.</p>
<p>Hey Mike,
If the goal is to get in, I would use the MSAR scores. I would guess that they're probably not that different, right?</p>