<p>Atheists, don't respond in this thread. If you effectively voice your opinion like I did, some Christian will inhibit your freedom of speech by reporting your post to a mod, who will then proceed to delete your post thus killing free speech.</p>
<p>Christians are a joke.
Here's an FYI - Obama is far too intelligent to be a theist. I hope you all enjoy having an atheist as your president.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You mean you believe in intelligent design?... lol, that's even more illogical than religion, imo. Actually, more ignorant than illogical. The thought that a God had to be responsible for the order of the universe is terribly flawed.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, intelligent design says that there was an order to everything rather than something random like natural selection. I think natural selection *is[/is] where God is, just like He's in black holes and Einstein's theories and everything else out there. You don't have to call it God, but I think we're arguing the same thing with different names. The world exists with patterns and the ability to stabilize itself. Not every part of the universe has to be stable for it to be considered orderly.</p>
<p>
[quote]
woah woah woah WOAH, hang on! "nature fits together so nicely"????????</p>
<ol>
<li>"Order" is something that is defined by humans; it's completely subjective</li>
<li>If anything, the gravitational force is responsible for the "order" in the universe</li>
<li>The Universe is NOT an orderly place, even by our definition of order:</li>
<li>Most planet orbits in the universe are unstable</li>
<li>Most places in the Universe kill life instantly</li>
<li>Our galaxy is on a collision course w/ another galaxy (Andromeda)</li>
<li>Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, meteors, asteroids, black holes, supernovae</li>
<li>99% of life that has ever lived on Earth is currently extinct</li>
<li>Diseases</li>
<li>CO2, CO, CH4 - breath in enough of any of those and you're dead</li>
</ol>
<p>-- Yep, nature fits together very nicely... If there is a God that made the universe, then wow, he must really hate us lol
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Why would God hate us? You don't believe in God, so by your pessimistic logic, the universe hates us too. So the universe is allowed to hate us but God can't, even though all I'm saying is that he is the universe? I don't think God hates us, but if that's the way you view the world, whatever.</p>
<ol>
<li> And? Every single definition of every single world and every single concept is subjective. We live with it. I'm talking orderly by human definition, unless you have some other definition.</li>
<li> Okay. But there doesn't need to be gravitational force. There doesn't need to be a reason for anything in the universe to piece together with anything else, but it does. Fibanochi (yeah, I can't spell) sequences, the way math builds upon itself....
Again, reference the Einstein quote:
[quote]
"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary formsit is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."
[/quote]
</li>
<li> The thing is that the universe can right itself. I'm not talking "right itself" in the sense of perfection--after all, utopia translates to "no place." I'm just saying that natural selection, the way cuts can heal themselves, the way the Earth somehow came together with the elements to support life, even the planets without life...it's not something that can be called disorderly. My closet, that's disorderly.
-Okay...does that matter? It doesn't have to be perfectly elliptical to function.
-Hey, there's one place that has life. There is absolutely 0 reason for it to. And technically we don't know if we're the only life sustaining planet, but even non-living things are impressive. Life isn't the only miraculous thing the world's got going for it.
-And though mankind might not be there to witness it, that doesn't mean the universe will just disappear into nothingness. The elements would interact and morph, the same way they did after the Big Bang. The fact that the universe is changing from the one we observe now, that doesn't mean there isn't an order!<br>
-Which I think are incredible feats of nature. Yes, nature sometimes kills people (tsnamis, etc). People sometimes kill nature. People sometimes kill people. That doesn't indicate a lack of order, just that order doesn't aways favor the life of a person.<br>
-Life kills life. It's part of the order. I'm not a Bible hugging Christian who will tell you that God loves all creatures but that humans are his favorite. We had the distinct advantage of writing the Bible, so it favors mankind a wee too much in my opinion. We're not debating the Biblical God, just the existence of some force behind the universe.
-Plenty of organisms thrive on those gases. Just because something doesn't benefit humans directly doesn't mean it's disorderly!!!</li>
</ol>
<p>-- "A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms—it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man." --</p>
<p>Quit bringing Albert Einstein into this argument. He has nothing to do with god or intelligent design. Note, Albert Einstein was pantheist. PANTHEIST. It's completely different from any other religion or belief. Pantheism is the belief that all of nature is god, sort of like Hinduism minus the polytheism. It is the belief that channeling is true, that spirits exist, that there is a guiding force in the world, etc. </p>
<p>In fact, I myself in pantheist in a way. I believe in spirits to some extent and have certain beliefs of my own. Mainly, ghosts. But pantheism has, despite the name, almost nothing to do with theism. It is not the belief in a divine spiritual power. Rather, it is a belief that EVERYTHING is a divine spiritual power, not just one specific object, person or being.</p>
<p>
Christians are a joke.
</p>
<p>Take your prejudice somewhere else. You're no better than the oligarchs who enslaved the African race, or a certain German dictator who believed his own to be supreme. </p>
<p>Either come up with a valid argument, give up on those who defy your logic, or just simply don't get into the debate at all. But never insult an entire group of people based on the actions of a few.</p>
<p>-- Take your prejudice somewhere else. You're no better than the oligarchs who enslaved the African race, or a certain German dictator who believed his own to be supreme. </p>
<p>Either come up with a valid argument, give up on those who defy your logic, or just simply don't get into the debate at all. But never insult an entire group of people based on the actions of a few. --</p>
<p>Are we reading the same post here? I find King's post to be the best contribution to this entire thread.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Albert Einstein was pantheist. PANTHEIST. It's completely different from any other religion or belief.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, many neo-pagan religions are Pantheistic and one can make the argument that Islam and some other more prominent religions are pantheistic. It's not completely different that any other religion or belief, it is found quite commonly in many religious traditions. Just an FYI</p>
<p>^^ Are you kidding me? I don't care if you have a personal agenda against every Christian out there, but you better not have the audacity to insult an entire group of people. Show some damn respect for others.</p>
<p>Burning a blackface in effigy and calling an entire denomination a joke is the same thing, just on very different levels. The fact is, you believe an entire group of people to be below you. </p>
<p>Take your damn prejudice somewhere else.</p>
<p>Inner beliefs >Spirituality > Deity</p>
<p>My point with Albert Einstein is just hat he was a man of science and still believed in something greater. We're debating the existence of (a) god, not just the credibility of the Christian or Islam or whatever religion.</p>
<p>
Here's an FYI - Obama is far too intelligent to be a theist. I hope you all enjoy having an atheist as your president.
</p>
<p>False</p>
<ol>
<li> Obama is not necessarily as intelligent as you give him credit for being, so please don't worship him.</li>
<li> His beliefs are demonstrated by his lifelong relationship with the church and his rather conservative stance on social values.</li>
<li> There are intelligent christians.</li>
</ol>
<p>-- My point with Albert Einstein is just hat he was a man of science and still believed in something greater. We're debating the existence of (a) god, not just the credibility of the Christian or Islam or whatever religion. --</p>
<p>But Einstein, as I said, did not believe in a greater power. That is not what most pentheists, and certainly not the pantheist Einstein was, believe. Pantheists believe that ALL of the world is of a high spiritual force. Even then, what Einstein is worshipping in the quote you provided is not so much the awe of the universe, but the awe of the unexplainable.</p>
<p>
</p>
<ol>
<li>I don't "worship" obama. If I had a vote, i would not have voted because I am a Social Liberal-Fiscal Conservative, and I am always torn on who to support. Fail #1 + I like the little ad hom you threw in there.</li>
<li>Obama having conservative stances? He is for drivers licenses for illegal immigrants and was against prop 8. Lol Fail #2.</li>
<li>There are intelligent Christians on the outside, ok, but how can one consider him/herself intelligent when his/her brain is that deluded on the inside? Intelligence and Christianity are contradictory phrases. Fail #3.</li>
</ol>
<p>And whoever compared me to Hitler (a Christain I might add), lol @ you, supporting a religion which supported african-american enslavement, and disgusting crimes like passing yes on 8. You are all the mini-hitlers, us atheists are calm and peaceful. We hate to see our world get destroyed by this Christ-Psychosis because frankly, this is all we got. But you all are entitled to your opinions - that's the beauty of it. I'll respect to death your right to spew stupidity.</p>
<p>Why I don't understand is why some people on this thread have to put down other beliefs just because they don't agree with them. Isn't tolerance a basic principle that most kids learn in 3rd grade? What makes no sense to you might make perfect sense to someone else. Can you unequivocally prove that God exists? No. That's why it's called faith. Can you unequivocally prove that God does not exist? No. It's all a matter of choice.</p>
<p>Don't ever call people deluded or stupid or misinformed or detrimental to society just because they aren't exactly like you. And don't ever, ever compare someone to Hitler who doesn't deserve that description at all. Frankly, I'm amazed that anyone would sink to that level.</p>
<p>atheist here.</p>
<p>-- Why I don't understand is why some people on this thread have to put down other beliefs just because they don't agree with them. Isn't tolerance a basic principle that most kids learn in 3rd grade? --</p>
<p>I have tolerance to an extent. The tolerance we learned in 3rd grade as you mentioned are ones that help me cope with, say, an insufferable Starbucks barista, or a terrible teacher who just sucks at teaching, or some kid who pushed me down the stairs for no reason, etc. </p>
<p>Religion is absolutely intolerable in that it is a widespread scale of delusion, humiliation and perversion. It distrorts the true meaning of morals and ethics in order to have control over the majority of the human race in how they think, act and even dream. Religion supresses the true meaning and fulfillment in ones life by adding completely unnecessary burdens to people that are impossible to fulfill without wasting human life on its input. </p>
<p>Religion is a waste of time. Whether the belief system is true or not (and on that end, it is very very VERY likely to be untrue), mankind would be much better off without it. Society would progress in a more efficient manner and people would care for others genuinely instead of performing good deeds so that they can kiss gods ass to get into heaven.</p>
<p>
Ad hominem or not, you still have no idea what Obama's intelligence is.
[quote]
2. Obama having conservative stances? He is for drivers licenses for illegal immigrants and was against prop 8. Lol Fail #2.
[/quote]
Illegal immigration has nothing to do with christianity. However, on the gay rights issue, the official platform was that they were AGAINST gay marriage. They were pro civil union, but they didn't want to go all the way. This, in my opinion, is a rather conservative stance.
[quote]
3. There are intelligent Christians on the outside, ok, but how can one consider him/herself intelligent when his/her brain is that deluded on the inside? Intelligence and Christianity are contradictory phrases. Fail #3.
[/quote]
This is a load of ********. I am agnostic, but there is no reason why Christians cannot be intelligent. Personal belief has absolutely nothing to do with cognitive abilities </p>
<p>gg</p>
<p>Im not sure that religion is worthless at all. In fact, throughout the reign of mankind, religion has played a significant role. Without religion, we wouldnt have any reason to be nice or loving, we might still be, but there wouldnt be any ultimate motive to act that way. Religion has definitly helped us get to where we are today. 99% of the species to ever lived on earth have died right? Well how many of those species had religion, how many ever sacrificed themselves for a higher purpose? The answer is none, because those species couldnt think beyond survival-and without religion they didnt do so good. I am of the firm belief that without a governing force, aka religion, we would be just like those species who died off, animals, just living to survive and not fully process what a world we live in and the oppurtunites it presents.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Religion is absolutely intolerable in that it is a widespread scale of delusion, humiliation and perversion. It distrorts the true meaning of morals and ethics in order to have control over the majority of the human race in how they think, act and even dream. Religion supresses the true meaning and fulfillment in ones life by adding completely unnecessary burdens to people that are impossible to fulfill without wasting human life on its input.</p>
<p>Religion is a waste of time. Whether the belief system is true or not (and on that end, it is very very VERY likely to be untrue), mankind would be much better off without it. Society would progress in a more efficient manner and people would care for others genuinely instead of performing good deeds so that they can kiss gods ass to get into heaven.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh Lord. I'm peacing out.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Don't ever call people deluded or stupid or misinformed or detrimental to society just because they aren't exactly like you. And don't ever, ever compare someone to Hitler who doesn't deserve that description at all. Frankly, I'm amazed that anyone would sink to that level.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Amen. /irony.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Well how many of those species had religion, how many ever sacrificed themselves for a higher purpose? The answer is none, because those species couldnt think beyond survival-and without religion they didnt do so good. I am of the firm belief that without a governing force, aka religion, we would be just like those species who died off, animals, just living to survive and not fully process what a world we live in and the oppurtunites it presents.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>We've only lived a fraction of the time that many, many other species have lived on earth. And just because we're not extinct yet, doesn't mean we won't go extinct. Religion is not the reason that we are not extinct and other animals are. And to be honest, when it comes to living only for the necessities, I think that other animals got it right. I mean, what's the worst thing on earth right now? Humans. I don't see a bunch of other species destroying their environment and waging wars on each other.</p>
<p>"Atheists, don't respond in this thread. If you effectively voice your opinion like I did, some Christian will inhibit your freedom of speech by reporting your post to a mod, who will then proceed to delete your post thus killing free speech."</p>
<p>Effectively voice your opinion? Oh dear lord. </p>
<p>You're not only getting logically slaughtered by Christians, but by agnostics and your fellow atheists as well. I haven't read ONE of your posts that provides any evidence for your stance. So far I've seen things like "all religious people are the definition of STUPID," but with absolutely no cogent argument behind it whatsoever. All you have presented is hatred and bigotry towards anyone on here who is religious or happens to disagree with you. This is why some psycho-Christian sects are so afraid of people like you. If you had your way (judging by your posts), atheism would be shoved down our throats.</p>
<p>And by the way, I did see that one of your posts got deleted. However, my response to that particular post of yours was deleted as well. I think it's because we both eluded to the F-word, so they were reported. Not because your free speech is being violated.</p>