Big Ten expansion moves ahead

[goldenboy8784]

<p>

@Alexandre

Football stadiums with 100,000 capacity sell out for every single game. Let us be honest.

That’s because Football only takes place on Saturday mornings/afternoons when students and local townspeople don’t have any other academic or professional obligations. Basketball games are frequent and can take place on any day of the week so obviously there are lot of conflicts with other activities that students have to take part in. I do believe overexposure is a major problem in college basketball.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

If Basketball programs could attract larger crowds, and sell tickets at a higher price, major programs would build larger arenas capable of seating 20,000 or more spectators. The fact that only a handful of arenas can seat mover 20,000 is a clear indication of how much support there is for the sport.

That’s absolutely false, at least in Duke’s case. Duke’s Cameron Indoor Stadium seats just north of $9,000 and is one of the smallest arenas in college basketball out of choice. The small stadium creates a very intimate environment where the noise the student section and the grad student section creates makes Cameron a very hostile place to play Duke for ACC foes. The effect of the noise generated by students in a much larger stadium would be diluted since it would be spread across a greater mass.</p>

<p>Small settings for sports can just be as effective as large venues depending on the circumstance. I’m sure the Big House has many passionate fans but it will never be as raucous as The Fogg, Cameron Indoor Stadium, or any college basketball venue where the opponent is playing Duke to be honest in a big-time matchup. Who cares if the Syracuse-DePaul game isn’t well attended?</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

I am fairly certain that the BCS title game has a slightly higher TV rating than the NCAA Basketball tournament championship game.

This historically hasn’t been true.</p>

[UCBChemEGrad]

<p>^ Pro basketball competes with college basketball. Pro football doesn’t compete with college football as much since they play different days on the weekend usually.</p>

[rjkofnovi]

<p>“Duke’s Cameron Indoor Stadium seats just north of $9,000 and is one of the smallest arenas in college basketball out of choice. The small stadium creates a very intimate environment where the noise the student section and the grad student section creates makes Cameron a very hostile place to play Duke for ACC foes.”</p>

<p>Of course, this type of boorish behavior could be the main reason why Cameron is so hard to play in:</p>

<p>[Cameron</a> Crazies mock NCSU player over his grandma’s death - The Gridiron Palace Forums (Football Message Board)](<a href=“Cameron Crazies mock NCSU player over his grandma's death - Other Sports - The Gridiron Palace Forums (Football Message Board)”>Cameron Crazies mock NCSU player over his grandma's death - Other Sports - The Gridiron Palace Forums (Football Message Board))</p>

<p>Keep it is classy Duke!</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>goldenboy, its all about demand and supply. If college Basketball were truly as popular as college Football, it would make as much money. It doesn’t come close. College Football generates far, far, far more money. There is a reason why Maryland and Rutgers jumped ship. UNC and UVa would probably have done so already if they were not afraid of the legal financial ramifications.</p>

[par72]

<p>Duke basketball has the prestige of ND foorball and both schools reap mllions more than the huge big10 schools. Duke has begun a $350 million campaign for athletics. no surpise that duke and nd have endowments in the top 12. nu is the only big10 school with comparable endowment.</p>

[rjkofnovi]

<p>^^^^^Wrong…</p>

[bclintonk]

<p>

@par72

Duke has begun a $350 million campaign for athletics. no surpise that duke and nd have endowments in the top 12. nu is the only big10 school with comparable endowment.

</p>

<p>According to the latest NACUBO figures, Michigan has the 7th largest endowment nationally, at $7.7 billion for FY 2012. </p>

<p>Northwestern is #10 at $7.1 billion.
Notre Dame is #13 at $6.3 billion.
Duke is #15 at $5.5 billion.</p>

<p>In addition to its endowment, Michigan gets an annual state subsidy in the neighborhood of $300 million, which is the equivalent of an annual payout from an additional $6 billion in endowment funds.</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>“…no surpise that duke and nd have endowments in the top 12. nu is the only big10 school with comparable endowment.”</p>

<p>par72, you should check the facts before embarrassing yourself. Your endowment data must be very outdated. Michigan’s endowment ($7.6 billion) is currently significantly larger than Duke’s ($5.5 billion) and slightly larger than NUs ($7.2 billion). </p>

<p><a href=“Page not Found”>Page not Found;

<p>“Duke basketball has the prestige of ND foorball and both schools reap mllions more than the huge big10 schools.”</p>

<p>Do you just make claims without checking the facts? Below are the most profitable football programs:</p>

<ol>
<li>Texas Longhorns, $78,000,000</li>
<li>Michigan Wolverines, $62,000,000 </li>
<li>Georgia Bulldogs, $52,000,000</li>
<li>Florida Gators, $51,000,000</li>
<li>Alabama Crimson Tide, $45,000,000</li>
<li>LSU Tigers, $45,000,000</li>
<li>Auburn Tigers, $44,000,000</li>
<li>Notre Dame Fighting Irish, $43,000,000</li>
<li>Arkansas Razorbacks, $40,000,000</li>
<li>Nebraska Cornhuskers, $36,500,000</li>
</ol>

<p>While Notre Dame certainly holds its own, it is does not out-earn Michigan.</p>

<p>[Texas</a> tops in NCAA football profit, revenue - ESPN](<a href=“http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/dollars/post/_/id/2556/texas-tops-in-football-profit-revenue]Texas”>Texas tops in NCAA football profit, revenue - ESPN - Dollars - ESPN Playbook- ESPN)</p>

<p>Now compare this to the most profitable Basketball programs, and you will see that there is no comparison:</p>

<ol>
<li>Louisville Cardinals, $27,600,000</li>
<li>Duke Blue Devils, $15,100,000</li>
<li>Arizona Wildcats, $14,300,000</li>
<li>UNC Tar Heels, $13,200,000</li>
<li>Ohio State Buckeyes, $11,750,000</li>
<li>Syracuse , $11,500,000</li>
<li>Wisconsin Badgers, $10,000,000</li>
<li>Indiana Hoosiers, $9,900,000</li>
<li>Illinois Fighting Illini, $9,800,000</li>
<li>Minnesota Golden Gophers, $9,600,000</li>
</ol>

<p>Again, Duke does great, but so do several Big 10 schools.</p>

<p>[What</a> are college basketball?s most profitable programs? - Memphis Business Journal](<a href=“http://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/news/2012/11/28/what-are-college-basketballs-most.html?s=image_gallery]What”>http://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/news/2012/11/28/what-are-college-basketballs-most.html?s=image_gallery)</p>

<p>Like I said, top football programs earn, on average, far more profits than top basketball programs. Like 300%-400% more. It is not even close really. </p>

<p>Here’s a cool observation for you:</p>

<p>Duke BB profits $15 million + Notre Dame FB profits $43 million = $58 million < Michigan football profits $62 million. Wow, pretty impressive. Michigan Football is more profitable than Notre Dame Football and Duke Basketball combined.</p>

[goldenboy8784]

<p>

@bclintonk

According to the latest NACUBO figures, Michigan has the 7th largest endowment nationally, at $7.7 billion for FY 2012. </p>

<p>Northwestern is #10 at $7.1 billion.
Notre Dame is #13 at $6.3 billion.
Duke is #15 at $5.5 billion.</p>

<p>In addition to its endowment, Michigan gets an annual state subsidy in the neighborhood of $300 million, which is the equivalent of an annual payout from an additional $6 billion in endowment funds.

To add to this discussion, The Duke Endowment, which is separate from Duke University’s internal endowment fund, donates between $50-$100 Million annually to support Duke’s different academic efforts, professional schools philanthropy effors, health care system, etc. In fact, at least half of the funds of this private foundation’s $2.7 Billion endowment are allocated to support Duke in a direct or auxiliary manner.</p>

<p>You can search through the grant history here:
<a href=“http://webapps.corp.cogentco.com/SalesPortal/QuickView.asp?action=ListCompanyDetails&Rowid=1-1DM1LD&Account=Toffler[/url]”>http://webapps.corp.cogentco.com/SalesPortal/QuickView.asp?action=ListCompanyDetails&Rowid=1-1DM1LD&Account=Toffler&lt;/a&gt; Associates&addr=1775 Wiehle Ave, Reston, VA, 20190&SiebelVersion=4 </p>

<p>A brief Wikipedia article can be found here:
[The</a> Duke Endowment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Duke_Endowment]The”>The Duke Endowment - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>So given a 5% typical endowment payout format that most universities use each fiscal year, Duke would infuse exactly $1 Billion to its own endowment fund if we conservatively say that The Duke Endowment gives $50 Million in grants to support the school in some manner in a given year.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

par72, you should check the facts before embarrassing yourself. Your endowment data must be very outdated. Michigan’s endowment ($7.6 billion) is currently significantly larger than Duke’s ($5.5 billion) and slightly larger than NUs ($7.2 billion).

If you follow my analysis above, it is you in fact who is embarrassing yourself Alexandre as Duke is the 2nd wealthiest of these 4 schools (NU, Michigan, Duke, ND) with a $6.5 Billion Absolute Endowment and most importantly a Per Capita Endowment of ~$445,480.</p>

<p>Here is some key information about Finances at the University of Michigan straight from The Office of the Vice President for Communications:
[University</a> of Michigan Endowment Q&A | Public Affairs | OVPC](<a href=“http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/pa/key/endow_qa.html]University”>http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/pa/key/endow_qa.html)
[University</a> of Michigan Funding: A Snapshot](<a href=“General Fund Budget Snapshot | U-M Public Affairs”>http://vpcomm.umich.edu/budget/fundingsnapshot/5.html)</p>

<p>Here are the accurate numbers for all 4 schools</p>

<p>Absolute Endowment

1. University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: $13.1 Billion (incl. ~$270M state appropriations in FY 2012)
2. Northwestern University: $7.1 Billion
3. Duke University: $6.6 Billion (incl. ~$50M in grants from The Duke Endowment each year)
4. University of Notre Dame: $6.3 Billion</p>

<p>Endowment Per Capita

1. University of Notre Dame: ~$536,947 (11,733 total students)
2. Duke University: ~$452,334 (14,591 total students)
3. Northwestern University: ~370,100 (19,184 total students)
4. University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: ~$301,663 (43,426 total students)</p>

<p>Michigan is wealthy indeed, but its no Duke or Notre Dame in this regard. ;)</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>How did I embarrass myself goldenboy? Par72 suggested that Northwestern was the only university in the Big 10 with an endowment comparable to Duke. I corrected him. I was correct. Nowhere was endowment per capita mentioned. You brought it up. But as an economist, I am sure you will appreciate the concept of economies of scale. In the case of Michigan, which is three times larger than Duke and four times larger than Notre Dame, the dollar goes much further. The difference between $300k and $370k or $450k is not that significant. It becomes negligible when you factor in economies of scale. Suffice it to say, Michigan is very wealthy. </p>

<p>And the other points I brought up in post 1368 were all correct as well. The three most profitable college football programs combined are more profitable than the 15 most profitable college Basketball programs combined, and Michigan’s football program alone is more profitable than Duke’s Basketball and Notre Dame’s football programs combined.</p>

[UCBChemEGrad]

<p>What par said was obviously a mistake and doubt his intention was to slight Michigan. But you don’t need to correct him with a sledgehammer…</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>I was not that harsh UCB. I just don’t like it when people make sweeping comments with such assertion. If you are going to make a statement, check your facts.</p>

[goldenboy8784]

<p>

@Alexandre

But as an economist, I am sure you will appreciate the concept of economies of scale. In the case of Michigan, which is three times larger than Duke and four times larger than Notre Dame, the dollar goes much further. The difference between $300k and $370k or $450k is not that significant. It becomes negligible when you factor in economies of scale. Suffice it to say, Michigan is very wealthy.

Economies of scale is a nice concept but unless you are intimately familiar with the revenue streams of a particular university, which I assume neither of us are, it doesn’t really help explain much. Michigan has to endow faculty chairs and fund operations for a lot more facilities than Duke does since it offers a lot more esoteric fields of study such as many more foreign languages, engineering subjects, etc. as well as different vocational majors like Pharmacy, Dentistry, Architecture, Social Work, Musical Theater, etc. The same applies but to a smaller scale at Northwestern.</p>

<p>I think you and I can agree that Duke and particularly places like Notre Dame or UChicago get more “bang for each endowment dollar used” by not having to pay the operations and labor costs for the smorgasbord of different programs that UMichigan uniquely offer.</p>

<p>There’s a cost to pay for having as many world-class programs as the University of Michigan does-somebody’s gotta pay the piper (and it looks like the state is slinking further and further away from the school). ;)</p>

[xiggi]

<p>Hey, please drop the money discussion, and celebrate the return of March Madness on the 19th. Time will come to take a look at what happened to the boring and uneventful collection of meaningless games, and see who made it this year. And then let the madness --mostly due to incredibly poor officiating-- unfold and end in the April 8th consecration of another insipid and forgetful season of NCAA basketball. </p>

<p>Well, in most parts of the country that is, namely parts that have a lot more than college basketball! Of course, there is always Lacrosse to fuel the spirits at the Plantation.</p>

<p>Here is the list of yawners!</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-tournament/bracketology/[/url]”>http://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-tournament/bracketology/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[UCBChemEGrad]

<p>Geeezzz, Xiggi, you’re more cynical than I am… :)</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>“Geeezzz, Xiggi, you’re more cynical than I am…”</p>

<p>That’s hardly a revelation!</p>

[goldenboy8784]

<p>

@xiggi

Hey, please drop the money discussion, and celebrate the return of March Madness on the 19th. Time will come to take a look at what happened to the boring and uneventful collection of meaningless games, and see who made it this year. And then let the madness --mostly due to incredibly poor officiating-- unfold and end in the April 8th consecration of another insipid and forgetful season of NCAA basketball.

Ah Xiggi, I think you need a refresher course on some of the non “insipid and forgetful” NCAA tournament games in years past to give you motivation to fill out some brackets this year. :)</p>

<p>Here’s a good place to start: [NCAA</a> at 75 - College Basketball - ESPN](<a href=“http://espn.go.com/ncb/feature/video/_/page/Top75moments/ncaa-75-college-basketball]NCAA”>http://espn.go.com/ncb/feature/video/_/page/Top75moments/ncaa-75-college-basketball)</p>

[Sparkeye7]

<p>Big Ten Expansion / ACC Apocalypse Roundtable Discussion: Two Key Points</p>

<p>[Big</a> Ten Expansion / ACC Apocalypse Roundtable Discussion: Two Key Points - BC Interruption](<a href=“Big Ten Expansion / ACC Apocalypse Roundtable Discussion: Two Key Points - BC Interruption”>Big Ten Expansion / ACC Apocalypse Roundtable Discussion: Two Key Points - BC Interruption)</p>

[Sparkeye7]

<p>Report: Big Ten subsidizing Maryland’s travel costs</p>

<p>[Report:</a> Big Ten subsidizing Maryland’s travel costs - Testudo Times](<a href=“Report: Big Ten subsidizing Maryland's travel costs - Testudo Times”>Report: Big Ten subsidizing Maryland's travel costs - Testudo Times)</p>

[tsdad]

<p>And Rutgers is still giddy with delight.</p>