<p>Good G-d, does this thread make me feel bad for attending my school (and don't even go to UMass)! I attend an out of state, third tier public u on a near full-ride scholarship. The other scholarship kids I've met had various reasons for choosing this school--some wanted to go a private school but didn't have the money, some chose this school for a rare, strong program, some chose this school because hey, if you're going to go to college, why not go for free?, some loved surrounding area or campus, etc. Though you can get a "traditional" pubilic school experience here (drinking and football), you can also get a totally different one; you can go to weekly microbio seminars, you can hang around with the zillions of international students we have, you can go to the often held student or faculty concertts, you can do undergrad research, you can do community service, etc., etc., or you can mix and match as you please.</p>
<p>The main problem I've had thus far with the school (the Japanese department) is similar to a problem a friend had at her very expensive, generally well-regarded private u. While I'm not going to deny there are probably many better schools, my point is that going to state you does not necessarily many you'll have a drunk, pointless 4 years as an indescript an unnoticable face (All my professors this term know me, by the way).</p>
<p>Thanks for weighing in, Wolfpiper. I think that some people are inclined to bash public schools partly to justify to themselves the cost of the private education. Of course the public schools have problems -- but many private colleges also have problems, and public universities also can offer students many opportunities.</p>
<p>I am not one inclined to bash public schools at all. On the other hand, I think that the stereotype of UMass, and perhaps some other less than stellar public U's, as with any stereotype, is born of some element of truth.</p>
<p>Certainly our very open minded visit there bore this out.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There are many terrific public unis, that are much better, at least for in-state residents, than many many costly private colleges. Even UMASS-Amherst has some pockets of excellence and its membership in the Five Colleges Consortium make it a better choice than some expensive but second-rate colleges.[
[/quote]
From my post #36.</p>
<p>Wolfpiper, you know many of us--myself-included--supported your idea of attending U Montana over other options because it had so many of your desiderata. It appears that the one aspect that is disappointing is the Japanese Department. Otherwise, it looks like a great fit. The Japanese Department may change next year, or you may be able to work something out. But even if it does not, I would not worry, as you have done recently, about its perceived lack of recognition. I am, in fact, awed by the fact that it has a Japanese Department. Many expensive colleges don't have one.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Though you can get a "traditional" pubilic school experience here (drinking and football), you can also get a totally different one; you can go to weekly microbio seminars, you can hang around with the zillions of international students we have, you can go to the often held student or faculty concertts, you can do undergrad research, you can do community service, etc., etc., or you can mix and match as you please.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is a very good point, wolfpiper, and it's good for you to describe your experiences so vividly. </p>
<p>Resourceful students like you who are determined to seek out the "pockets of excellence" marite mentioned can create a great educational experience for themselves in places that many others would have considered too unpromising to consider.</p>
<p>Then too, there are the occasional students who attend expensive colleges with amazing resouces but who do not seek to take advantage of those resources, who prefer partying or on-line poker playing or whatever.</p>
<p>Education is truly what you make of it. Every college has some terrific professors and some terrific students, and if you are determined to seek out the pockets of excellence, you can get a great education.</p>
<p>It's interesting that you pointed out the many international students on your campus. That reinforces the point I made earlier---you don't have to pay private tuition to find access to friends from all over the world. </p>
<p>The reality is that expensive private colleges have a very limited number of spaces for international students needing financial aid, so there are many incredibly talented international students (as well as recent immigrants) who wind up at inexpensive public institutions.</p>
<p>I loved UMass/Amherst, a proud Umie am I. I transferrred from Vassar, which I detested. Not bashing Vassar here, just a horrid fit for me. Had a lot of great honors classes as an English major, much better offerings than at Vassar...no problem going to law school out of UMass. And I graduated with no debt....</p>
<p>"I have read that Massachusetts is the ONLY state in the United States in which a majority of college-bound high school students go off to privately operated colleges"
I read this recently about nj. Rutgers seems like a fine institution but has run into some financial troubles recently. Many from nj are well to do and choose to go elsewhere (including PSU). Even here in PA - going to PSU is considered toxic by many upper income students and parents. Too big, not enough prestige, blah blah. Much cooler to go to a place GWU (at 55K per year) or Syracuse.</p>
<p>I am a proud state school graduate (Oh Rutgers, Oh rah...) but my D is now a freshman at a private fine arts school. The arrangement we had was that she could apply wherever she wanted, as long as she applied for any merit or scholarships I indicated. </p>
<p>She is currently paying the equivalent amount as if she had attended one of our top tier publics (PSU or Pitt).</p>
<p>My S is in 8th grade. We are not excluding state U as a viable option for him.</p>
<p>In the 1970s, UMass-A also had strong sociology/psychology departments.</p>
<p>State U's in FL have been getting more & more selective, especially in fields like engineering. UFL-Gainsville is the toughest college in Fl to get into.</p>
<p>I think we also can't underestimate the natural inclination of people to "swear by" anything that they've paid a lot of money for. And, ironically, sometimes, the more they've paid the more they "like" the thing, often regardless of what it is.</p>
<p>I'm not saying that people don't really love their very expensive schools - I'm sure they do! But I just think when you're asking to compare/contrast you have to take into account this very human phenomenon.</p>
<hr>
<p>But like I said before, it's neither here nor there for 98% of us.</p>
<p>Back to the OP's question - are top-tier privates worth the price of admission? Depends on who you are.
Those who qualify for generous finanical aid may find privates (even top tier) to be cheaper than publics. So they choose the best fit and go from there.
Those with money to burn find the question perplexing. Of course, it's worth it to spend top $ for top schools.<br>
Those who have relatively comfortable incomes and do not qualify for financial may face a tough choice. Even with disciplined savings, spending 200K per child and figuring out how to retire with enough money is VERY difficult. Merit aid can be a factor for top students but not at top 25 schools. So you begin to evaluate the public vs private cost equation. And you try to find the best fit for your child, while paying attention to cost. Those in state with quality publics have it a bit easier (NC for example - what a deal).</p>
<p>I graduated from a public high school in Massachusetts in the 70's and UMASS was called ZooMass because of it's large student body - at least that's what I thought. (Also, because it's alliterative - like Taxachusetts). The meaning could well have changed over time.</p>
<p>Well I have one son torn over the private elite versus the public debate. It will be interesting to see how he decides. Penn/Northwestern/USC versus full tuition offers at several public universities with good records for getting kids into the best grad schools and with solid engineering colleges. He is having trouble making his mind up frankly and that is OK for now. Engineering is quite good at the publics so I don't see much advantage to paying a lot of money for the elite label but that is just me.</p>
<p>My other son told me he wanted to go to school where the students do not wear Abercrombie or American Eagle clothing LOL that pretty much wipes out the elites and most privates. He is a true free spirit.</p>
<p>I've been a big supporter of public colleges, but I had an experience yesterday that has made me change my mind. I was tailgating outside the U of Michigan - Ball State game. A group (of white guys) about 20 yards away was playing rap music with heavy bass so loud that my kids had immediate headaches. I was wearing a Michigan sweatshirt, and the people with the loud music were also wearing Michigan gear. We tried to ignore the music, but eventually I had no choice but to go over and ask them to turn it down.</p>
<p>Instead of we're-all-for-Michigan collegiality, what I got was "Hey, it's a free country." It immediately hit me that state colleges are devoid of any underlying philosophy except for "This place is for everybody of all persuasions, and all of your beliefs are equally valid." Whereas private colleges are not afraid to have some underlying purpose, philosophy, or code of ethics. When the dork gave me the "free country" line, there was nothing I could fall back on...the public colleges are based on a LACK of similarity--they're for everybody of every type of behavior and belief, whereas the private colleges have a sort of unspoken "You come here, you're buying off on THIS set of standards."</p>
<p>TourGuide446, yep. The incident you mentioned would get me to want to pay $100,000 more for college. </p>
<p>I heard that kids that attend private colleges don't play loud music, they don't drink, smoke, or use drugs, they don't fornicate, they are never rude to their elders, they don't cheat, steal, masturbate, and they don't talk with their mouths full.</p>
<p>My Ss have never set foot in an Abercrombie & Fitch or American Eagle store! Most reluctantly, they have gone into Old Navy. They're happy to let me order out of catalogs (I, too, hate shopping). I know some of S2's schoolmates (from a very diverse high school) suddenly turned preppy upon starting college, but that soon faded out. And S1's own college was famous for having guys wear skirts (well, some of them did). Preppy? nah...</p>
<p>My private college daughter shops mainly at Kohl's - she was reluctant to buy a sweater at the Gap (that I was paying for as a birthday gift)- because it was "overpriced" at $38. (She always looks very nice though :) ). Same with my private college son - in and out of Kohls twice a year (summer and winter clothes) as fast as he can do it. In contrast, my co-worker's community college daughter buys $75 jeans and other kinds of expensive attire that I can't imagine my daughter having any interest in.</p>
<p>The difference in cost is about $100,000 give or take, over the four years needed to complete a bachelor's. The question then is will the investment of $100,000 provide a positive or negative return over a 40 year career? Ignoring time value of money, you need to make an incremental $5K per year to break even. </p>
<p>I work with two people who attended both a flagship state U (a well regarded top 50 one) and an ivy. Both said that access to internships and opportunities were far greater at the ivy. They both had opportunities to interview with companies that did not recruit at their state school. </p>
<p>I agree with Marian-I think that in most cases it IS worth the extra cost to attend an elite school, but I question the economic value of a lower ranked private school over a top 100 state school. </p>
<p>I want to stress that I'm only comparing the economics here--"fit" doesn't enter into it--as with all economics arguments, you have to focus on one or two variables and ignore the stuff you can't quantify!</p>