<p>Ross is definitely higher than Duke. Stern and Haas are more comparable.</p>
<p>“Ross is definitely higher than Duke”
That’s false. they are about the same but Ross is not DEFINITELY higher than Duke.</p>
<p>I have no idea why people think the business school is better than it really is. It’s not even top ten. It’s business, not engineering… It’s behind schools like Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Duke, UPenn, Dartmouth, Colombia, Notre Dame, and even NYU.</p>
<p>Plus, undergrad business is kinda worthless unless you go on to get an MBA. This was my point earlier… You think those business classes actually teach you how to run a business, heck no. You get better at business by doing business, not by taking Accounting 101.</p>
<p>Get a degree that isn’t a dime a dozen, network by joining clubs (greek life) and meeting people, and possibly even start your own business. That’s going to be a lot better than being in Ross and getting a 3.7. Yes, you know how to pass the classes, but do you really know how to manage a business?</p>
<p>You can teach yourself how to play the piano, but you’d advance much more quickly by learning proper technique and playing style from a teacher. This is an effective metaphor for undergraduate business. Whoever said Ross students aren’t doing business just because they’re attending b-school instead of running their own businesses?</p>
<p>Also, the majority of students who do undergrad business do in fact go on to get an MBA after they’ve worked a few years following graduation.</p>
<p>Finally, where’s your basis for saying that Ross is not even top ten? Unless you’re talking about grad school, then your statement holds absolutely no credence whatsoever. For undergrad business, Michigan ranks fourth in both U.S. News and BusinessWeek.</p>
<p>Joshrk, Ross is generally considered among the top 10 MBA programs according to both academe and industry/recruiters and among the top 3 or 4 BBA programs. Ross is definitely at least as good (though generally conisdered better) as Fuqua, Stern and Yale SOM at the MBA level. At the BBA level, only Wharton is considered better.</p>
<p>Wow, here we go again.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That is quite the opposite of the truth. An undergrad business degree is quite worthless IF you go on to get an MBA. There is so much overlap in the two degrees. I suppose you could concentrate in different areas though…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That is fairly misguided. Yes, the business education in itself can be thought of as a dime a dozen. And networking and meeting people is important independent of your degree. What Ross does for you is bring companies to your doorstep (something that LSA does not do). And managing a business? No degree will teach you how to manage a business. That’s only something you can learn in practice. This idea is just completely irrelevant to the typical usefulness of a business degree (most people use it to go on to work for someone else).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>and</p>
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</p>
<p>are very misleading, because the ivy league, stanford, and a few others are considered ahead of or on par with Ross by employers. I’m not saying Ross isn’t great for job placement, but if you’re looking at rankings, you have to include those schools at which companies recruit heavily but do not have undergrad b-schools. And the main draw of an undergrad b-school is the job placement (or maybe it’s the utility of accounting/finance/marketing knowledge… LOL).</p>
<p>Giants, I agree with part of what you say. There are two types of jobs/career paths students fresh out of college can realistically pursue; Industry and Services. </p>
<p>In the case of Industry, Michigan (Ross and the CoE in particular) is second to none. It is defnitely among the top 5, along with a handful of other universities, also strong in Business and Engineering. We are talking about firms such as GE, Microsoft, Cisco, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, GM, Ford, Pfizer, J&J, P&G, Merck, Medtronic, Amgen, IBM, etc… Those firms are looking for students with analytic ability, project management potential, teamwork and technical skills (Engineering, Marketing, Finance, Accounting etc…), and they will graviate to schools like Cal, Cornell, MIT, Northwestern, Penn, UIUC and UT-Austin. Of course, to make it far in those organizations, one must excel during the first few years, get an MBA from a top program and get back in the game as a “hi-po”…but it all starts with getting one’s foot in the door fresh out of college and Michigan has very few peers in this domain. </p>
<p>In the case of services, like Consulting (Bain, BCG, Booz, McKinsey, Mercer, Oliver Wyman etc…) and IBanks (BNP Paribas, Citigroup, Credit Suisse, Deutschebank, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, Morgan Stanley, UBS etc…), I agree 100% with your point. Among BBA programs, Ross would be considered among the top 3 or 4, but other 3-4 undergraduate institutions that do not offer BBAs would be considered more "strategic. To nobody’s surprise, those are Harvard, Princeton and perhaps Stanford and Yale, although the latter two are not as potent as the first two. Beyond those 4 amazing universities, you have MIT and wharton which are as potent. Once you leave those 6 programs, Ross belongs to a group of 10-15 universities that do a great job of placing students and into major Consulting and IBanking firms. Those are Brown (no BBA), Cal (BBA), Chicago (no BBA), Columbia (no BBA), Cornell (BBA), Dartmouth (no BBA), Duke (no BBA), Georgetown (BBA), Northwestern (no BBA), Notre Dame (BBA), Stern (only fo IBanking) and UVa (BBA).</p>
<p>Some of those universities will place more students into those firms than other schools, but that’s because a larger number of students at those universities pursue such careers. So for those types of jobs, Ross is among the top 5 BBAs and Michigan is among the top 20 or so universities with only 1 BBA program and 5 or 6 universities having a significant edge over Ross/Michigan.</p>
<p>That’s valid - my knowledge of industry recruiting is far shallower than my knowledge of banking/consulting recruiting because it is the latter through which I just went. Ross is most certainly a target, but it’s included in that second tier, after HYPSM + W</p>
<p>
This is blatantly false. Columbia/Dartmouth/Duke blow Ross out of the water when it comes to IB recruiting. Also, Yale is not on the same level as Harvard/Princeton/Wharton for whatever reason.</p>
<p>TIER 1
Dartmouth
Harvard
Princeton
Wharton</p>
<p>TIER 2
Columbia
Duke
Stanford
Yale</p>
<p>TIER 3
Cornell
Georgetown
UCB Haas
UMich Ross
NYU Stern
Penn CAS
Brown</p>
<p>Where did you come up with these tiers? And why is MIT Sloan not included? This seems more like your speculation than anything else.</p>
<p>Yea that’s a little arbitrary… H P and W are definitely tier 1, but is Dartmouth up there with them? S and Y aren’t ahead of Dartmouth, or at least on par? I think what Alexandre meant was that HYP + W are definitely #1 (which I agree with, I really don’t think Dartmouth jumps ahead of Yale, nor Stanford for that matter) and Ross falls into the schools that come after them. At what level Ross is among the next tier is debatable, probably in the middle. And yea, you completely left out MIT.</p>
<p>Just ignore lesdiablesbleus; almost all his posts are overly caustic and serve no other purpose than to demean the people who frequent the forums he posts in. He’s basically a ■■■■■ who has to put others down in order to raise his low self-esteem.</p>
<p>“This is blatantly false.”</p>
<p>I am not sure how lesdiablebleus’ grouping differs so wildly from mine. He seems to have blown Columbia, Dartmouth and Duke up a little and to have ignored MIT altogether, but otherwise, our two lists are virtually identical. I said:</p>
<p>TIER I
Harvard
Princeton
Wharton</p>
<p>TIER II
MIT
Stanford
Yale</p>
<p>TIER III
Brown
Cal (Haas)
Chicago
Columbia
Cornell
Dartmouth
Duke
Georgetown
Michigan-Ross
Northwestern
Penn (non-Wharton)</p>
<p>“Columbia/Dartmouth/Duke blow Ross out of the water when it comes to IB recruiting.”</p>
<p>Nobody, not even Wharton and Harvard, “blow Ross out of the water” when it comes to IBanking…but Columbia, Dartmouth and Duke? LOL! Did you hire anybody for a major, buldge bracket firm yet lesdiablesbleu? Have you conducted an industry-wide study on the subject? I can tell you that Ross’ placement into major IBanks and Management Consulting firms is at least on par with those three schools.</p>
<p>^yea what he said</p>
<p>
Have you recruited from a bulge bracket or conducted a precise industry-wide survey Alexandre? No way is Ross on the same level as Columbia/Dartmouth/Duke. I am actually in college so I have plenty of interactions with friends who work on The Street while you haven’t been a banker for over 15 years and live in Dubai, all the way at the other end of the world. Something like 40-50% of Dartmouth/Duke undergrads in general go into banking/consulting in general. Let’s compare the figures:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2009.pdf[/url]”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2009.pdf</a>
[Duke</a> University | Student Affairs | Career Center | Senior Exit Survey Results for Undergraduates](<a href=“http://www.studentaffairs.duke.edu/career/stats]Duke”>http://www.studentaffairs.duke.edu/career/stats)
<a href=“http://www.dartmouth.edu/~csrc/pdfs/08stats.pdf[/url]”>http://www.dartmouth.edu/~csrc/pdfs/08stats.pdf</a></p>
<p>Ross doesn’t compare to Dartmouth/Duke. None of the top banks took more than 10 kids from Ross full-time and I’m willing to bet half of the kids hired full-time at places like DB/MS/CS/Citi/UBS are working in Operations and Wealth Management roles. Does Goldman Sachs even recruit at Michigan anymore? What about BAML? Where’s Wells Fargo on this list? What about Barclays? BCG didn’t even take anyone from Ross last year and Parthenon doesn’t even recruit at Ross.
[The</a> Parthenon Group - Careers - Calendar / Events](<a href=“http://www.parthenon.com/Undergraduate/CalendarEvents]The”>http://www.parthenon.com/Undergraduate/CalendarEvents)</p>
<p>Duke’s top employers last year were Teach for America/Goldman/Morgan Stanley/Bank of America/BCG/Barclays/Microsoft. These are all reputable firms/organizations and there’s no fluff whatsoever. Similarily, Dartmouth’s top employers including all the major bulge brackets and the very top firms in the consulting world like MBB/Parthenon/Cambridge/Bridgewater, etc. etc.</p>
<p>I guess Ross grads are working at Target/Huron Consulting while Duke/Dartmouth grads are working at Goldman/BCG/Morgan Stanley.</p>
<p>Your alma mater just can’t compare with the Ivy League Alexandre.</p>
<p>“Have you recruited from a bulge bracket or conducted a precise industry-wide survey Alexandre?”</p>
<p>lesdiablesbleu, I recruited for Lehman Brothers and Goldman Sachs in London from 1996-1999. You have no clue what you are talking about. Do you mind sharing actual hard numbers with us? Please enlighten us.</p>
<p>I just find it shocking that no one at Michigan was able to get a job at BCG/Goldman Sachs/Barclays/BAML last year from Ross. I don’t have hard figures unfortunately, but the very fact that these firms are listed as the “Top Hiring Companies” for Duke and Dartmouth suggest multiple grads(10+) are working at these organizations from the respective schools.</p>
<p>Care to explain?</p>
<p>Barclays is a minor player compared to GS, JPM, MS, CS, UBS, Citi, BNPP and Deutsche, but Barclays does hire Ross BBAs…as does Goldman Sachs. All but BNPP hired Ross undergrads last year. From the Consulting side, McKinsey, Bain, BCG and Booz are the top 4 players. Below are the number of Ross BBA hires:</p>
<p>JP Morgan: 12
Citi: 7
Credit Suisse: 6
McKinsey: 5
Morgan Stanley: 5
Bain: 3
Deutsche: 3
Booz: 2
UBS: 1</p>
<p>Goldman Sachs did hire (I know at least 2 Ross students who accepted offers last year), but in total, fewer than 8 Ross students accepted offers from Goldman Sachs, so it did not make the list. Generally, anywhere from 4-8 Ross BBAs accept offers from GS each year, but last year was obviously not a great year.</p>
<p>Just as many Ross students join companies such as Microsoft (6), Cisco (6), Eli Lilly (2), P&G (2), Google (1), GE (1)and the Big 4 (15+).</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2009.pdf[/url]”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2009.pdf</a></p>
<p>I am glad that Dartmouth and Duke have a list of “Top Hiring Companies”. Good for them. I wonder why they don’t actually share the exact numbers like Ross does? Care to explain?</p>
<p>And you cannot compare Ross to Dartmouth or Duke because Ross only has 350 students per graduating class compared, only half of which are interested in jobs in IBanking or Consulting, compared to 1,000 at Dartmouth and 1,500 at Duke. Tell me, how many Duke and Dartmouth students compete for those jobs at GS, JPM and MS? 250-350 each year? At Ross, it is never more than 100 or 150.</p>
<p>Alex, only undergraduate business schools share exact data regarding internship/job placement since they are very cohesive units that are able to more easily track the movements of their students/graduates. None of the Ivies without business schools have precise employment data so no need to single Dartmouth and Duke out. In fact, even Michigan and Penn don’t have exact employment numbers for their Engineering and Arts & Sciences students.</p>
<p>None of the firm hiring figures reported in the Ross business profile are particularly good besides McKinsey and JPM. Dartmouth and Duke both have 15+ grads who work at GS/MS (the top two BBs in terms of deal flow) year after year and the number is often in the 20s. The fact that the number of Ross grads who work at these two firms is in the single digits indicates to me that Ross is simply not on the same level as Dartmouth or Duke when it comes to investment banking.</p>
<p>Furthermore, you conveniently ignore the fact that Merrill doesn’t even recruit at Michigan, which is absolutely laughable and a clear slap to UMich Ross’s face when one considers the caliber of the bank we are talking about here. The same can be said with the lack of Michigan representation in BCG, one of the top consulting firms.</p>
<p>As far as the level of competition between the schools, your theory that less Ross students apply to these firms than Dartmouth/Duke students so it must be easier to land the job from Ross is flawed because not all the 250-300 kids who are competing for banking jobs at Dartmouth/Duke are truly competitive candidates (3.5+ GPA). The smartest kids at Dartmouth/Duke are the engineers and the premed candidates NOT the prospective i-bankers. At Michigan however, the stats show that Ross self-selects and contains the absolute cream of the crop at UMich.</p>
<p>The bar is also definitely lower at Dartmouth/Duke to get these banking jobs. I have a friend who is a Duke junior and has a 3.3ish and got interviews at about half of the banks/consulting firms he applied to. If a student has a 3.3 at Michigan Ross in this day and age, he/she would stand no chance of landing an interview. My friend at Ross told me that some of these firms mentioned explicit cutoffs at their info sessions in the b-schools while no such GPA cutoffs exist at Dartmouth or Duke(at least not officially).</p>
<p>And here is the kicker: you can major in the easiest majors at Dartmouth/Duke and the banks will evaluate you in the same way. However, since Ross has the best recruiting at Michigan, students have to succeed in the cutthroat b-school and escape with high GPAs in order to even land interviews. While at Dartmouth/Duke, a history major with a 3.7 or 3.8 GPA(not difficult to manage at all), will at least get an interview at every bulge bracket no questions asked.</p>
<p>My cousin went to Harvard and got a 3.5 GPA in English and now works for GS in London. That’s the beauty of the reputations of the top private schools in the country.</p>
<p>I have checked all 160 profiles availlable of McKinsey employees on their website.The results were interesting to say the least. Roughly half of McKinsey employees completed their undergraduate studies at universities that you would consider beneath Dartmouth and Duke. Schools like University of Arkansas, University of Minnesota, Miami of Ohio, Ohio State, Brandeis, Boston College, Babson, South Carolina, Rutgers, Virginia Tech etc… Many of those are partners. Overall, below were the 10 most frequent undergraduate institutions represented:</p>
<h1>1 Stanford 14</h1>
<h1>2 Harvard 13</h1>
<h1>3 Penn (6)</h1>
<h1>4 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (5)</h1>
<h1>4 Princeton University (5)</h1>
<h1>6 Dartmouth College (4)</h1>
<h1>6 Duke University (4)</h1>
<h1>6 University of Michigan (4)</h1>
<h1>6 Yale (4)</h1>
<h1>10 Cornell (3)</h1>
<h1>10 Notre Dame (3)</h1>
<p>[McKinsey</a> & Company New York Office - Home](<a href=“http://www.mckinsey.com/locations/newyork/consultants/index.aspx]McKinsey”>http://www.mckinsey.com/locations/newyork/consultants/index.aspx)</p>
<p>As you know, I also conducted an in-depth search on the profiles of employees at the top 6 PRivate Equity firms, and Dartmouth and Duke had hardly an advantage over Michigan in the number of undergraduate representation. </p>
<p>Do you have any hard, empirical evidence (as I have provided) that proves that Dartmouth and Duke are far superior to Ross inplacing undergrads into top firms as you claim them to be? If you do, please share them with us. All the numerical evidence I have seen seems to suggest that Dartmouth and Duke are nothing special relative to Michigan.</p>