Business School and Social Life

Colleges & Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>“Dartmouth and Duke both have 15+ grads who work at GS/MS (the top two BBs in terms of deal flow) year after year and the number is often in the 20s.”</p>

<p>Fascinating. I did not realize that Dartmouth and Duke were better than wharton. That is truly special. Wharton, which graduates 650 undergraduate students each year (twice as many as Ross), managed to place just 14 undergrads into GS and 10 into MS. …and you are telling us that Dartmouth and Duke each placed 20+ undergrads into those firms annually. That is AMAZING! Wow!!!</p>

<p>But back to verifiable numbers and reality. Last year, Wharton placed roughly 150 undergrads into top IBanks and Consulting firms, compared to Ross’s 50. Adjusted for size, that’s 100 for Ross vs 150 for Wharton.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/wharton/surveys/Wharton2009Report.pdf[/url]”>http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/wharton/surveys/Wharton2009Report.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2009.pdf[/url]”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2009.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>McKinsey and Bain combined hired 23 undergrads from Wharton last year, compared to 10 from Ross. Again, remember that Wharton is twice bigger than Ross, so on a per/student basis, Wharton barely edges Ross.</p>

<p>Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley and JP Morgan combined hired 35 undergrads from Wharton last year compared to 16 from Ross. Again, when adjusted for size, the difference between Ross and Wharton is negligible.</p>

<p>Those 6 firms above are the most highly sought in their respective industries and last year, in the worst economic climate in years, Wharton, which is twice bigger than Ross, edged Ross 58 to 26. Adjusted for size, those 6 super-duper companies recruited that’s approximately 58 to Wharton vs 50 to Ross.</p>

<p>I fully admit (always have) that Wharton is better than Ross and the numbers bear this out, although not to the extent one may think. I seriously doubt Dartmouth and Duke put up similar numbers, but if you have proof, please feel free to share them with us. Even then, you will not be comparing apples to apples as I only have figures for Ross. Major IBanks and Consulting firms also hire Michigan Engineers and LSA students, though admittedly in fewer numbers because most Michigan students interested in those professions end up at Ross. </p>

<p>No matter what, like I said above, NOBODY, not even Wharton, “blows Michigan out of the water”. The numbers above prove this. Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, BCG, Bain, McKinsey etc… simply do not recruit that much more (if at all) heavily at Wharton, the Holy Grail and mother of all hunting grounds, than at Ross. Where do you come off claiming that Columbia, Dartmouth and Duke “blow Michigan out of the water” is beyond me. If you at least had actual number to back you up, but you don’t…I do!</p>

<p>Go to any major IBank or Consulting firm’s website and check employee profiles and you will see as many employees who did their undergraduate studies at Michigan as you will see employees who did their undergraduate studies at Dartmouth or Duke. That’s certainly the case at the likes of GS, MG, JPM, Citi, CS, UBS, Carlyle, Blackstone, Bain Capital, McKinsey, BCG, Bain, Booz etc…</p>

<p>Speaking of BCG (whom you incorrectly claim does not hire at Michigan), I randomly checked the profiles of the three featured partners in their NewYork office.</p>

<p>[BCG</a> in New York and New Jersey - Meet Us](<a href=“Contact Us | New York City, New York | BCG”>Contact Us | New York City, New York | BCG)</p>

<p>[BCG</a> in New York and New Jersey - Meet Us](<a href=“Contact Us | New York City, New York | BCG”>Contact Us | New York City, New York | BCG)</p>

<p>[BCG</a> in New York and New Jersey - Meet Us](<a href=“Contact Us | New York City, New York | BCG”>Contact Us | New York City, New York | BCG)</p>

<p>Wouldn’t you know it…two of those three featured BCG Partners in NYC completed their undergraduate studies at Michigan. What a coinsidence! </p>

<p>Finally, although Ross students are very good, they are no more accomplished than Engineering students and a large chunk of the LSA population. I would estimate that roughly a third of Michigan’s student body is as good as Ross’s student population. </p>

<p>You know lesdiablesbleus, confident humility, respect for your equals and verifiable claims will take you further in life than unjustified arrogance, boorish condescending attitude and the dispensing of completely unverifiable and whimsical boasts.</p>

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<p>I dont have much more to add to this thread than Alexandre just did, but i do have a little bit of personal experience. I’m not entirely sure where you get your data from, but I personally know multiple people from Ross 2009 who got offers from each of these firms, and know people from that class now working full time for front-office positions at Goldman (ibd) and Barclays (distressed credit prop trading). Similarly, my class (2010) is sending 7 to Goldman (across ibd, s&t, and ssg), 2 to Barclays ibd, and at least 1 to BCG.</p>

<p>Until you start providing real numbers for either Ross or Duke/Dartmouth, you really have nothing to add here except some sort of strange grudge.</p>

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<p>Can I still put in the argument that some of the cream of the crop of Mich includes LSA Econ/Math majors who didn’t give a crap about business? I’m pretty sure that’s true. Quite a few of the theoretical math majors are dual econ majors with interest in finance, and almost none of them find value in B-School.</p>

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<p>Before I read past this post, I would like to immediately refute it stating that I personally have three friends (current seniors) going to BCG, Goldman, and Barclays respectively next year.</p>

<p>Edit: Now that I have read the rest of the thread thus far, Alexandre wins.</p>

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<p>^You are lying then, unless they belong to other programs within UMich, because they are not listed in the Ross Employment Profile. Link me to their Facebook profiles that lists their company name or your words mean nothing to me.</p>

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<p>^do you have sand stuck up your ass or something? got an axe to grind? whats with the ross bashing?</p>

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<p>No, I am not lying. All three are in Ross - one is going to Goldman (a very VERY difficult group to get into, mind you… better than simply one of their IBD coverage groups), one is going to Barclays Capital, one is going to BCG (besides being in Ross, he is also doing Math and Econ majors in LSA) - all full time starting this summer 2010. You can choose whether or not to believe me, but that’s what’s happening. I will not link you to their Facebook profiles, you weirdo.</p>

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<p>“they are not listed in the Ross Employment Profile”</p>

<p>lesdiablesbleus, the Ross employment profile only lists companies where 8 or more students in total (MBA, BBA, Full time and Intern) accepted an offer. Since GS and MS usually recruit very few MBAs at Ross, for the BBA program to hit 8 on a down year is not easy. But GS always recruits undergrads at Michigan and 2009 was no different. GS hired 5 BBAs in 2008, 9 BBAs in 2007, 9 BBAs in 2006, 10 BBAs in 2005 and 4 BBAs in 2004.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2008.pdf[/url]”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2008.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2007.pdf[/url]”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2007.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2006.pdf[/url]”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2006.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2005.pdf[/url]”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2005.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2004.pdf[/url]”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2004.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Not that it matters. If you chose to believe that GS did not recruit at Ross in 2009, it does not change the fact that if you compare verified hires at top IBanks and Consulting firms from Ross and Wharton annually (including 2009), and adjust for size, the difference is negligible. Since I doubt that Dartmouth and Duke do a better job of placing their students into IBanks and Consulting firms than Wharton, then it is safe to say that they do not do a better job than Ross either.</p>

<p>And though it is true that no Ross BBA joined BCG according to Ross’ employment profile in 2008 and 2009, each year, roughly 10 Ross BBAs join Consulting firms of equal stature (Bain, Booz and McKinsey). Furthermore, as the profiles of BCG partners in NYC proves, Ross has high-level staff members at BCG. Again, adjusted for size, the difference between Wharton and Ross is not that significant.</p>

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<p>I’m not sure exactly what this information is taking into account - when you say “no Ross BBA joined BCG according to Ross’ employment profile in … 2009” is that supposed include students graduating in 2010, and thus joining the firm in 2010, but who accepted offers in the fall of 2009? If so, then it’s simply wrong, because there IS at least one senior going to BCG after he graduates, that I know of.</p>

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<p>I was referring to Ross students who graduated in the winter/Spring of 2009.</p>

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<p>Ok gotcha 10 char</p>

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<p>Just curious, but how many people posting in this thread actually go/went to Ross?</p>

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<p>Is that really going to matter? People that went to Ross are going to defend Ross because they’re in it and the people that aren’t in Ross are going to argue against it.</p>

<p>However, I’ve talked to quite a few kids in Ross that have said that if they could do it over again, they would get a more useful degree besides Business and then later go on to get a Business degree.</p>

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Are you serious Alexandre? You can’t just “adjust for size” and claim Ross to be equal to Wharton by doubling Ross’s placement numbers for jobs/internships. If you know statistics well, you would know that it’s far, far more impressive for a business school to be twice as big and still place a little more than twice as many people into the top banks/consulting firms. If Ross’s size doubled, its placement numbers would be incredibly diluted and I doubt it would increase them just because they have more students, LET ALONE TWICE AS MANY AS PEOPLE. This is just a ridiculous proposition. Ross is effective as a b-school primarily due its small size because it essentially selects the 300 smartest/business-oriented students at Michigan. If it were to expand its size, then it would still place the same amount of students in the top firms and its placement figures would just plummet across the board.</p>

<p>Do you honestly think that if Ross doubled its size, companies would double their recruitment of Ross students? THAT’S JUST RIDICULOUS!!! If they were that interested in Michigan, these firms would just recruit a lot more of the really smart LSA/Econ and Engineering majors for their internships/jobs but they clearly aren’t doing that. These companies do most of their recruiting at Ross and even if they only pick up a few people, it makes Ross look good since that number is still good by virtue of Ross’s small enrollment size.</p>

<p>What I’m trying to say is that if Dartmouth and Duke created a “business program” for the 300 smartest kids in their school, their placement figures per capita into the top IB/Consulting firms would be much stronger than Wharton’s. The fact that Ross’s numbers per capita only show up as being equivalent to Wharton is nothing to brag about.</p>

<p>Wharton is so absolutely dominant because it is such a large business school and it is still able to comparatively place more students into the top firms than Ross, which is half the size.</p>

<p>By the way, besides JPMorgan, none of Ross’s placement figures are particularly impressive. I know at least 5 kids at Duke who secured IBD internships with Deutsche and that’s not even including all the S&T kids. Duke’s placement into Merrill and MS blows Ross out of the water. They both take like 5-10 interns for IBD ALONE each year and come back on campus and pick up 5-10 for full-time positions in IBD. Again, this is not even including the placement into other divisions in these companies like S&T, Asset Management, Research, WM, etc.</p>

<p>Although Wharton is definitely better overall and appeals to a more wide range of industry players like small boutiques and PE firms that Dartmouth/Duke students don’t have access to, I think the hiring for the bulge bracket firms is similar. In fact, I think Merill recruits more at Duke than any other school in the country including Harvard, Princeton and Wharton. This is what a Harvard grad who works in banking at Merill personally told me. The same might be true at Morgan Stanley since John Mack is a Duke grad and the CEO there. Dartmouth’s dominance at GS is well-known as the past CEO was a Dartmouth alum I believe. I believe Dartmouth places as well into Goldman as Harvard, Princeton and Wharton.</p>

<p>In summary, Wharton is twice as good as Ross. Dartmouth/Duke are slightly worse than Wharton but still a great deal better than Ross.</p>

<p>TOP 5 BANKING SCHOOLS

  1. Harvard
  2. Wharton
  3. Princeton
  4. Dartmouth
  5. Duke</p>

<p>Ross belongs in the next group of recruited schools however and is extremely well-respected, albeit not to the same degree as the aforementioned 5 titans of finance.</p>

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<p>Harvard, Wharton, Princeton, then D-mouth and Duke? Removing Michigan from this equation, I do believe Stanford, MIT and Yale have a couple of complaints.</p>

<p>Also to Alexandre, giants and the rest, why d’you still continue to argue with a ■■■■■ who displays enough bias (“les diables blues,” and propagating Duke’s “superiority”, seriously?) and ignorance to be impervious to reason? This is just as bad as openly dealing with bearcats when he’s in an “arguing for no purpose” mood.</p>

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<p>He goes to duke.</p>

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<p>Btw I am not particularly in the arguing for no purpose mood today. However, I do apologize for not singing unwarranted praise about michigan in any situation like the rest of you do. I believe in my own judgement and analysis</p>

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<p>His comments about size are actually probably accurate. Doubling the size of Ross would not double it’s placement numbers. There are a number of qualified LSA/Engineering students who would greatly benefit from Ross’s recruiting and likely boost its placement numbers, but the proportion of qualified candidates among the next 300 students to join Ross would not be equal to the proportion of qualified candidates currently enrolled in Ross. That said, I disagree that he only ranks H, P, and W ahead of dartmouth and duke. HYPS and W are tier 1, with Ross, Dartmouth, and Duke among the next tier. I also think rankings are ■■■■■■■■, but that’s how employers stack up the schools.</p>

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<p>Stanford is great but I don’t know why people assume that Yale has an incredible reputation in the finance community. It’s definitely the second most prestigious school in the US but it’s alum network on Wall Street is not as strong as those at Columbia or Dartmouth from what I’ve seen and heard. Yale is typically not known as having a very pre-professional student body, which may actually help in terms of getting a job in IB due to having to deal with less competition, but means that there will be less Yalie respresentation of The Street overall.</p>

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<p>Hm. Here’s a thread that discusses what we’ve been talking about. It’s huge (22 pages) and I don’t feel like reading the whole damn thing, but the third post on the thread seems to agree with you (unless of course you read through this thread and have been reproducing/building upon it here).</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/investment-banking/459445-best-undergraduate-college-investment-banking-hedge-funding.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/investment-banking/459445-best-undergraduate-college-investment-banking-hedge-funding.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;