<p>It depends on your overall courseload. If a student is already taking 2 years of AP English and 2 years of AP history and AP language and a few AP science courses, it is not necesary to take AP calc if the student is going to do badly in that course. Statistics often comes in more handy in life. I am just talking about college admissions here - you can get into any college (except tech schools) without it. They are looking at your overall record and accomplishments. There are students who take AP calc but not two years of AP English, for instance, and that may looked upon as worse for someone who wants to be an English major. It doesn't just come down to one course, AP Calc. My daughter didn't take it, but had lots of other APs and had lots of other accomplishments outside school (acting and comedy writing on the adult level - not just at her school) and she got in ED to her first choice. Also, our high school had 3 kids accepted early to Duke and only one had AP calculus. Some of the kids with AP calc did not get in. For many schools a great math SAT score will trump a poorer score even if the student with the poor score is in AP calc.</p>
<p>Candace,
PreCalc (ANY math) is a struggle for my D. -- but it is all relative! It depends too much on the student and the teacher. It was easy for my S.</p>
<p>Gee-- top MBA programs require calculus, even if you're going to major in Marketing and work in an Ad agency.</p>
<p>Why close off options at age 17???? All the success stories of math-phobic kids who defied the odds seem to be the exceptions to the rule. In most cases, take the most rigorous coursework offered at your school if you're aiming for the most competitive colleges. Can you get in without calculus? of course. Do you want the adcoms spending the 9 minutes or so they spend per kid discussing why your kid didn't take calculus since it's offered at your school...probably not.</p>
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Can you get in without calculus? of course. Do you want the adcoms spending the 9 minutes or so they spend per kid discussing why your kid didn't take calculus since it's offered at your school...probably not.
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<p>Since I have a math-nerd who took AP-Calc-BC in 8th grade, I feel I can repeat what I've said before without seeming to be advocating innumeracy. S1 got into 4 top LACs without having taken AP-Calc. How long each adcom took over his application? I have no idea. S1 made his decision with our complete blessings. We felt he should choose the colleges that would fit him; not try to fit the colleges. </p>
<p>True, at 18, he did not know what he wanted to pursue as a career. But there was no question it would involve calculus. Mine has not, either. sometimes, however, I wish I had learned stats along the way.</p>
<p>It may not be true for everyone but I think in this global economy a liberal arts student must have very good knowledge of math and science. Our daughter took all AP sciences and took AP Math BC in 10th grade and scored 5. However her love is humanities. She did research in science while still in high school but then again she wants to pursue Investment banking or law and would like to know more about business so that she can make better judgments. The problem with lot of business people is they do not understand the research and thus can not evaluate the IPOs in way that will affect the clients decision. This approach got her into H and likely letter from many top other schools. But we need to see $$$$$ in fin aid from colleges before anything happens.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>Not taking math? That's the sound of slamming doors. </p> </blockquote>
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<p>IMO, math through calculus is essential.<<</p>
<p>Dmd, are you sure you aren't my husband in disguise?! We've gone round and round for years on this calculus topic. I am the original poster and we homeschool our children. Dd #1 was math phobic and college phobic. She took through Algebra I only, graduated from high school, is employed as a nanny and is quite happy. Dh was none too happy about her math decision. Ds #2 took business calc dual-credit at the community college. He's at a state univ. majoring in international studies. He also took statistics at the comm. college and is already seeing its usefulness in his psych. class this semester. Ds #3 is the budding filmmaker. He's in pre-calc now (a homeschool class) and we will tentatively be putting him in calc. at the community college in the fall. He doesn't want to do it, I don't want him to do it, but Dh (the engineer) is pretty dead-set. I haven't decided if this hill is worth dying on, so I really appreciate the insights here.</p>
<p>Maybe I'll prepare a Power Point presentation for him. I'll include quotes from this thread and the math requirements for ds' desired schools. :-) By the way, USC wouldn't require ds to take any math after he got there if I'm not mistaken!</p>
<p>USC has some real easy math and science classes for liberal arts, communications, etc. majors. Everybody has to pass one of each. The popular science class is Geology-lite, known as "Rocks for Jocks." The math class is "Algebra for Poetry Majors."</p>
<p>It is quite true that a student can get into--and graduate from--a perfectly good college without ever taking calculus.</p>
<p>However, it is my contention that the becoming a well-educated person involves understanding certain areas of knowledge, not all of which may have direct usefulness or applicability. I know all too many English majors who take their lack of fundamental math literacy lightly ("I just can't do math!") but no math majors who decry their lack of English skills ("I just can't read!"). </p>
<p>I feel the same way about learning to speak a foreign language. It's just arrogance to think only knowing English is enough.</p>
<p>I agree about the innumeracy issue. I just don't think calculus is the way to go. Statistics is a much more useful tool for a non-math, non-scientist to have.</p>
<p>Stats may be more utilitarian but you don't need stats for econ.... you need calculus. Stats is a good tool for lots of things, but I think kids underestimate the importance of core knowledge domains when they think about their education.</p>
<p>I counsel lots of mid-career professionals who recognize.... once they're in their forties.... that they closed off many paths prematurely.</p>
<p>That's really interesting, blossom. I would think that even as a teen, one would know whether they are a "science person", a "liberal arts person", an "engineering person", etc.</p>
<p>Just as an aside...do you think business calculus would be a good choice for a kid who definitely isn't heading for engineering?</p>
<p>With our son, he says he doesn't want to do anything involving math or science, yet I see a possible "science person" hiding in there. He's been going outside and performing "experiments" since he was little. He is intensely curious and likes to understand how things work. Right now (age 16), he wants to study filmmaking. As I have learned about filmmaking, I realize that it makes use of a lot of his gifts. However, he is <em>not</em> a detail person and struggles with math because of that. (When I say "struggles", I mean that he's making a B- in pre-cal.) So, I just wonder if I should keep open those paths toward science careers even though he's against it.</p>
<p>Although I went to a (top) MBA program back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, and although I myself had taken Calculus, they certainly didn't require it then and I would be surprised if they require it now. In fact, they had special sections of Economics for "poets," the term of endearment for arts/humanities types who had been accepted into the B-school. You can go a long way in Economics (my undergrad major) without calculus - the "first derivative" that characterizes a lot of Economics can be understood in very simple terms as a rate of change.</p>
<p>I advocate stepping out of your comfort zone, being "numerate" as well as "literate," rounding out your college education with science and something quantitative even if it's not your "thing." But I think the fixation on calculus per se is misplaced.</p>
<p>JmMom--also a top MBA program here, and I was put into a remedial calculus program 1st semester. I was at a distinct disadvantage...everyone else had taken calc as undergrads or in HS but couldn't place out via the test...I had never seen the material before.</p>
<p>Many fields have calculus-derived formulas that are spoonfed to students who are not conversant with calculus. Physics taught without calculus, environmental science, economics, statistics all spring to mind. Every teacher or psychologist or doctor should understand statistics, and you can either understand the simplified formulas, or you can understand how they were derived.</p>
<p>High school and college are relatively risk-free zones for trying to understand something that is difficult for you; the trend towards seeking the perfect GPA has obscured this role for both places. It's a shame.</p>
<p>"That's really interesting, blossom. I would think that even as a teen, one would know whether they are a "science person", a "liberal arts person", an "engineering person", etc."</p>
<p>I don't think that's true - I know too many career changers, including myself. I went into college as a science major (pre-med), graduated with a degree in psych and natural sciences, got a master's in health sciences, and then - went to law school! Realized through college & grad school (didn't get into med school) that science really wasn't my thing, at least not doing research. </p>
<p>My d's chemistry teacher told them that she went into college determined never to take a nother science course. She had to, and the chemistry prof had a great rep as a great teacher - and here she is teaching honors/AP chemistry.</p>
<p>It's hard enough to change tracks/careers; I wouldn't want to have to overcome the thought of "I can't do that, I've never taken calculus, physics, etc." as well.</p>
<p>Well, let's get back to the OP. Her son wants to be a film major, not an MBA. He's not trying to get into HYP or AWS. In our school, very few students take Calculus--they only track about thirty into the sequence in eighth grade, so it's not a choice for everyone else. Yet they get into some very good schools.</p>
<p>I did take Calculus in hs, and as an English major, never took another math course. It's main "use" to me was that I was reading "Gravity's Rainbow" at the same time, and it uses a lot of calculus metaphors.</p>
<p>I'm glad I have (had) some understanding of it, but then, math came easy to me, though i didn't much like it. But a kid struggling to get a B- in Precalc can be setting himself up for big trouble next year.</p>
<p>I think a close perusal of the websites of the targeted schools, and perhaps some phone calls, are the best way to go. There's no definitive answer.</p>
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the trend towards seeking the perfect GPA has obscured this role for both places. It's a shame.
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<p>I think the trend toward pushing reluctant students into Calculus has to do with admissions rather than a real appreciation of the role of math in one's life. Calculus is only one branch of math, and not necessarily the most universally useful.<br>
My older S, knowing that he would never ever want to be a scientist (or an economist), decided to resist his GC's repeated urging that he take AP-Calc; instead he took a fourth year of math (Advanced math) and he took a stats course in college. In his senior year in high school, he challenged himself aplenty in other areas than math and science. He just refused to take courses for no better reason than they would look good on his transcript.</p>
<p>It almost seems like admissions people should look carefully at kids who choose NOT to take a particular, standard college prep curriculum. I can see making a case for a bright, academic kid who eschews calculus in favor of an AP or Honors Humanities course, or the math/science kid who deliberately chooses not to take AP English. In both cases, I would see an indication of courage of convictions, in that the student probably recognizes that his/her record may seem weaker in comparison, but still decides to pursue what's really interesting. The key, of course, is that there should be evidence of another overwhelming interest, as in the OPs case.</p>
<p>timely:</p>
<p>there is nothing on UCLA's Film School website to indicate that math or science is required, so your child s/b fine.</p>
<p>Other posters:</p>
<p>Many have noted that Calc is needed for Econ and, obviously, science and engineering. But, don't forget the 'ologies', i.e., Sociology, Phsychology, et al, which, depeding on the college, DO require Calc or Calc-Lite (for social science and/or life science majors). If there is a possibility that your child might gravitate to the social sciences, then I concur with Xiggi -- take Calc in HS where a student has 38 weeks to absorb the material vs. 19 weeks in a college semester. In addition to more time to cover the material, the HS competition is likely to be less than that at the college level, particularly since the premeds are in Calc-Lite course and can be grade grubbers.</p>
<p>Not necessarily. S is majoring in Psych at Columbia; they don't require Calc for the major.</p>