<p>thanks backhandgrip, I just ran out to home depot and bought my own handtruck after reading your post. Another issue is that in many colleges, the administration digs its own grave. One of the students from our town got stuck with a psycho roommate at Rutgers and the request for a new roommate was not acted upon until mom and dad took the day off from work and met with the dean.</p>
<p>laxdad, that is exactly what I was thinking last night. I was a single mother while my kids were in high school, and I struggled to get to those meetings that were help at noon time, (while I was at work), or teacher conferences at 4pm, (while I was at work) because god forbid you not be involved. now, 4 months after graduation I am not supposed to be involved. and to the one poster, (I'm sorry, I dont remember your handle), yes, his college was that bad, and more. I couldn't believe it either, thinking my son was just exaggerating, but it was verified by other students who tried to help him through the problems, and also got nowhere. his college was indeed that bad. and like I said, I never went through anything like this with the 2 colleges I attended, there were helpful people, and especially in nursing school, a lot of hand holding. there wasn't even face to face contact where my son went, let alone hand holding. I even had my husband call once because he didn't believe the rudeness and responses I was getting to questions or problems. after he hung up, he apologized to me and said my S should transfer to another campus, which he is doing. I just hope it's better there. I agree, administrations have dug their own graves, just like the MD's with this liability crisis, (and as another said, I don't want to start a controversy about that), and now they all have to dig their way out by acting responsibly and in a caring compassionate manner. it's not asking too much. yup, still furious by the article</p>
<p>I see some of myself in this article! Sometimes it's hard to stay on the sidelines while your children move towards independence.</p>
<p>True story: at 4:30 a.m. on the day my son is to leave for orientation I discover that the pile of clothes on the floor is what he has "packed" for the 3 day weekend. I "reminded" him several times in the days preceding to look at the list of things he would need, as he was not going to a hotel, but a dorm and needed a blanket, sheets, etc.
I was politely told "not to worry" as he "had it under control". I even purchased extra long twin sheets for the weekend.</p>
<p>DH and he had to catch a ferry, so there was very little time...
Do I have to tell you the ending? In the rush to leave, he forgot the bedding and also forgot his toothbrush. DH called me from the ferry and said he would try to find a Target or Walmart nearby when they arrived so they could purchase what he should have packed in the first place.
NOT ON YOUR LIFE, I told him. (He did buy a toothbrush, though!) DS slept on a bare mattress and used his duffel bag for a pillow, and a jacket for a blanket. He took a lot of good natured ribbing from his new friends, and he was quite popular for a day or two.
This was a turning point for me, and hopefully my son! If I keep doing everything for him, I'll ruin him!</p>
<p>this reminds me of my 44 yr old brother
He has an assistant at work to keep track of things for him
At home he refuses to let his wife go through any of the mail, even to throw out the junk mail so his three offices at home ( workshop- office- den) are overflowing with paper.
He recently accepted three free round trip tickets from an airline for being "bumped", one set of which he was going to use to fly my mother out to stay with them. Guess what he can't find at all in all his stuff and the cheapest price he found for one way which requires after hours and a transfer is $400.
I told him for $400 I will come out and clean his desk!</p>
<p>I am prone to getting everything I need for the day and leaving it on the table next to the door ( not taking it with me I mean), but tickets I keep track of.</p>
<p>Texas 137 wrote: "U. Chicago economist Steven Levitt has presented statistical evidence that the reason all of that antisocial and at-risk teen behavior has declined in recent years is because of Roe v Wade. He theorizes that the number of teens who would be likely to engage in those behaviors today is decreased because of the unwanted pregnancies that ended in abortion 16-20 years ago."</p>
<p>That's not at all incompatible with Brooks's observations and argument. If you read his whole column, you will see that the youth and family related excerpts I listed were just one dimension of what he sees as an overall increase in responsible behaviors ... and the improvement seems stronger the younger the age cohort.</p>
<p>
[quote]
At the University of Georgia, students who get frustrated or confused during registration have been known to interrupt their advisers to whip out a cellphone, speed-dial their parents and hand the phone to the adviser, saying, "Here, talk to my mom," says Richard Mullendore, a University of Georgia professor and former vice president, student affairs, at the universities of Georgia and Mississippi. The cellphone, he says, has become "the world's longest umbilical cord."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's hilarious.</p>
<p>the test of whether or not kids have successfully made the transition to adulthood, or whether or not parents are overinvolved, should not be applied to entering freshman. That's like giving the final exam on the first day of class. The test should be how independant and grown up the kids are when they graduate, or at least after they've been there for a little while. I suspect that parental involvement, and kid autonomy and level of independant functioning, once they are sophomores, has no relationship at all to what parents did or didn't do at move-in or freshman registration.</p>
<p>This discussion reminds me of the kind of advice new parents get about letting the baby sleep in the parents' bed or letting the baby cry. It rouses a lot of passionate discussion, but it has absolutely no correlation to how independant those babies are as adults, or even as school aged children. Whether or not you let the baby cry does not determine the risk of having an unemployed pseudo-adult living in your basement 30 years later. The same applies to whether or not parents do X,Y,Z with/for an 18 year old.</p>
<p>When most of us were growing up, the age of majority was 21. We had dorm curfews, and colleges acted "in locum parentis" until then. Now the age of majority is 18, for reasons that have everything to do with politics and nothing to do with adolescent development. Recent neurological studies indicate that adolescents do not think like adults until age 24. So why should the first day of college be arbitrarily chosen as the day that parent involvement abruptly ends? Why not graduation? Or why not a year, or a semester, or even a month later? Isn't the goal of parents to raise independant adults, ready for the responsibilies of jobs, marriage, family, etc? Shouldn't that be the test of good parenting, not how involved we are with 17-18 year old college freshmen?</p>
<p>Texas:
Amen!</p>
<p>* why should the first day of college be arbitrarily chosen as the day that parent involvement abruptly ends? Why not graduation? Or why not a year, or a semester, or even a month later? Isn't the goal of parents to raise independant adults, ready for the responsibilies of jobs, marriage, family, etc? Shouldn't that be the test of good parenting, not how involved we are with 17-18 year old college freshmen?*</p>
<p>THis thread could be run into the threads about kids or parents who are having a difficult time with seperation.
If we have been doing our job right- they have been seperating a little ever since they started to crawl.
going off to college doesn't mean they aren't going to call- not allow you to visit- not come home for vacations. They are still and will always be part of the family.
Freshman year of college is actually wonderful, you get a chance to see them on their turf in a way that you haven't before. really validating for parents I think.
College is a great place for students to try their wings in a relatively safe environment- it doesn't mean that they are totally independent- after all most still have food and room taken care of- and really going to college doesn't take 40 plus hours a week in class and studying- they are likely to have more free time than they did in high school, especially if they had been on sports teams or other ECs that required a lot of transportation time.
My daughters high school ECs were mainly at school- music and theatre performance and one term of a sport- but with a 15 yr old- I am glad to only have one kid to ferry around.
every family is different- my 15 yr old for example has OCD and anxiety and slept with me for years- ( and nursed till she was in preschool)
But she is very independent- and if she percieves she has some control, takes a lot of risks- she goes snowboarding- surfing- rockclimbing- and she has gone off to camp since she was 8- but it is still hard for her to admit she needs help in the classroom or in a school setting- I expect that when we look at colleges- we will have to find one that doesn't necessarily take the parenting role but is good about communicating to families.
We also are probably going to encourage her to take a year off after high school so she will be a little older when she goes off to college. That has worked well for her sister- and it will give her time to explore some opportunities that will give her a broader base of experience to make the most of college</p>
<p>I read an interesting article recently (Time? Newsweek?) that some of you have probably seen. The last page was an essay by a Japanese mother with a 6 yo. She said that in Japan, it is considered very important to children's independance for them to make their own way to school starting in 1st grade. For her child, that meant a 90 minute commute including 2 trains and a bus. In addition to the concerns we would share about the child getting lost, having to deal with changes in the train schedule (which her child cannot even read yet), and abduction, she also had to worry about her unaccompanied child witnessing a suicide on the tracks, which is apparently common. Her solution was really not to question the whole underlying cultural assumption about children making their own way to school (which apparently dated to a time when children walked to neighborhood schools). Her solution was a plan to move closer to the school.</p>
<p>Probably none of us would send a 6 year old on a complicated urban commute every day. And most of us don't go in for the prolonged bed-sharing common in some cultures. But we have our own cultural assumptions about what children "should" do for themselves at various ages to ensure appropriate development. These assumptions may be different in other cultures. I know a family in Spain with college-educated parents who found it very interesting that American kids generally go off to other cities for college. They said that in Spain, kids generally live at home and go to a local college.</p>
<p>I think the problem is the "one size fits all" nature of the assumptions themselves. How much parental interface with our child's college is appropriate vs. excessive is going to vary depending on the child, the college, and the situation.</p>
<p>Japan's education system is one of the most rigorous in the world. Admission rates into top Japanese institutions like Tokyo university make Harvard and MIT acceptance rates look rather generous.</p>
<p>Japanese students are on another level.</p>
<p>But Japanese universities do not compare with top American universities. Anyway, this is totally besides the point.</p>
<p>eternity - the rigor of Japan's educational system has nothing to do with the custom of 6 year olds making their own way to school "so they will be independant", which was the point I was making. It may have something to do with the custom of committing suicide by hurling oneself in front of commuter trains, potentially in full view of 6 year olds traveling alone. But that is a separate issue also.</p>
<p>Remember also the hard-wiring. We have our job to do as well as we can, following our own values and instincts on nursing and sleeping and chore and allowances and homework and jobs and team sports and god knows what. But they are also born as they are born. My daughter insisted on being born 7 days early. She has been ready to stand on her own since before she could crawl. She was only truly happy in life once she could call her friends herself and plan get-togethers. While she is very close to the family she has been going off on her own for several years now and already says she probably will not be home for most of next summer as she wants to work in Latin America - having spent this coming year on the other side of the country from us.</p>
<p>My son was born 8 days late, eyes shut, covered in vernix (sorry for the detail but it's important). He has had the same best friends for 14 of his 15 years of life and plans to attend Stanford with them. He likes to be home, and is happy with very little socializing.</p>
<p>They are who they are. We just have to try to support the path they come with. So whether we are helicopters or no will have a different impact on different kids. Thank god. I would rather be a resource than a director to my kids' lives.</p>
<p>Alumother - You are absolutely right. What matters is not the exact age at which they function as adults, but what kind of adults they become when they get there.
btw - your son may never put himself out there as much as your daughter, but expect a lot of changes from where he is now. Your description could have applied to my son at 14-15 (well, not the vernix part). Now, at 18, he's totally ready and eager to be off on his own.</p>
<p>Luckily the vernix is gone by now:). Thanks for the preview on the next few years. I confess boys are a little alien to me.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Luckily the vernix is gone by now.
[/quote]
Glad to hear it. Wouldn't want you going along to college to explain that to his profs.;)</p>
<p>The notion expressed here that college is a great place to find yourself reminded me of the old saw that college is wasted on the young. $200,000 is a lot to spend on finding oneself.</p>
<p>Probably the highest performing, most productive college generation in history were the GI Bill veterans who flooded campuses in the years following WW-II. They had already grown up. They set about their business seriously, regardless of their majors.</p>
<p>I've long thought that some sort of universal national service between high school and college would be good for the country and good for the nation's youth. There are lots of unpleasant, difficult "character building" tasks ... most not in the military ... that would benefit our society more than having kids squander some significant portion of their $200,000 educations.</p>
<p>Yes! This sentiment has been expressed, but I'll chime in anyway... at TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS A POP! if things aren't going well, and my son has tried to handle it himself, I think you can pretty well count on hearing from me! At TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS A POP! let's hope things can be handled on their end, but you never know! Did I emphasize TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS A POP!???????????????????????</p>
<p>My point is that after two years of difficult, perhaps unpleasant, but useful work with strict accountability, many more kids would be likely to knuckle down in college. Then the $200,000 would be less likely to be wasted.</p>