<p>dartmouth 2010!</p>
<p>yay Flipper! :):):)</p>
<p>Re. Slipper1234's statment: </p>
<p>"Dartmouth blows them away in terms of reputation on wall street, entry into top MBAs"</p>
<p>Actually, you're wrong. UVa has a huge reputation on Wall Street especially at the undergrad business level. So many UVa students are recruited by NY firms while at UVa. (I was one of them.) Plus, according to Business Week, UVa along w/ Wharton and Michigan are among the top 5 feeder schools for the best MBA programs. In addition, here's a comment in Business Week from a 4th year student at UVA's McIntire School of Commerce:</p>
<p>"At my internship this summer, I was often complimented on my command of accounting, writing, and speaking, often over the interns who had attended Ivy League schools. I would heartily recommend my program to someone interested in business because not only are hard skills like financial modeling and accounting stressed, but students learn in a positive, non-competitive environment, which encourages leadership in extracurricular activities and having a social life."</p>
<p>As for quality of life, UVa students and alums rave about their time at UVa, and Charlottesville is consistently rated as one of the best places to live. So, I certainly don't believe Dartmouth's quality of life is superior to UVa's.</p>
<p>Whatever the case, Flipperbw. Have a great time at Dartmouth!</p>
<p>Oops, here's one more thing to think about, which I forgot to mention. If someone else is going through this quandry of having to decide which undergraduate school is better for someone pursuing business. Dartmouth doesn't have an undergrad business school, but UVa (and Emory) does. I don't know much about Emory's program, but UVA's is stellar. Sure, I could easily point to UVA's recent Business Week ranking of #2 and US News ranking of #9, but frankly, rankings aren't the end all, be all. Instead, you should research each university's programs, visit the schools, and see for yourself. There's a reason why so many UVa grads are so successful - which is why UVa can embark on a $3 billion capital campaign.</p>
<p>globalist....
nobody is saying that uva mcintire is not great!
but please look at the doubt originally posted </p>
<p>"I want to study business/econ (potentially to work on wall street or something similar)."</p>
<p>yes, dartmouth doesnt have undergrad business (thank you for pointing out this unknown fact).....but flipper and many many others can/have studied econ at dartmouth, and gone on to amazing wall st. careers....
u also quoted some mcintire student </p>
<p>"At my internship this summer, I was often complimented on my command of accounting, writing, and speaking, often over the interns who had attended Ivy League schools. I would heartily recommend my program to someone interested in business because not only are hard skills like financial modeling and accounting stressed, but students learn in a positive, non-competitive environment, which encourages leadership in extracurricular activities and having a social life."</p>
<p>i am sure this guy / girl is amazing! but except for the fact that accounting is generally not taught ivy undergrad, everything else just doesnt make sense..... u mean to say ivy league people cant 'write and speak'.....or do u imply 'ivy environment is not positive' or 'do ivy ppl dont have leadership opportunities / social life '......hmmm if that is what u insinuate then...........</p>
<p>You will meet the children of Wall St at Dartmouth, the connections and alum support are said to be terrrific. In the east, the name Dartmouth
means so much more than UV. Its really not close unless you cannot deal with cold weather.</p>
<p>I'm not trying to downplay a great education one would surely get at Dartmouth. I know Dartmouth grads are successful and intelligent. I'm just countering Slipper1234's bravado in saying Dartmouth blows UVa out of the water in Wall Street - which is total BS. (He/she made a similar comment in another post about politics, and there too I had to prove that UVa can hold its own in that arena as well.) </p>
<p>Also, I'm not insinuating or implying anything. My inclusion of the quote is not a diss on an Ivy League education. I included it to show one could get as good an education (or perhaps an even better one if you wanted to study a field like accounting) at UVa as you would at Dartmouth. People always make the assumption that an Ivy League degree is always better without really looking closely at the various schools and the successful alumni who have benefited from their programs. It may seem obvious to you that Dartmouth doesn't have a undergrad business school, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people don't know that. Just read the crazy posts on College Confidential. There is so much misinformation. Just as Wharton teaches both undergrads and grads, I'm sure there are those who may think Tuck does so too. Plus people will try to make correlation that because a school has a great grad school program that their undergrad program would be as good, which is also misleading.</p>
<p>cmon guys, yes both schools are great but the important thing is flipper has already chosen Dartmouth. No more disputes here</p>
<p>True, and I'm sure he/she will have a great time.</p>
<p>Dude, an Undergraduate degree in business might be the biggest load of ******** that i've ever heard in my life. Other than Penn, which Ivy has a "business" program? What are you going to learn that you can't in h first two weeks on the job if you have half a brain? how to make spreadsheets? (two weeks on the job). How to be a "leader" and a "people person"? Wouldn't you rather spend your undergraduate years broadening your mind with Proust instead of Accounting 101 and Intro to Tax Laws? Cmon.... we live in an age where MBAs are increasingly common. if you're gonna be getting an MBA anyways, why bother with a business degree? broaden your mind with soething that at least sounds like an academic field.. like econ or something.</p>
<p>Globalist, I am not allowed to post commercial links (got in trouble before) but vault.com shows where all the top consulting firms and banks recruit. Dartmouth does blow UVA away.</p>
<p>Let me remind you that Dartmouth's reputation on Wall Street stems from Tuck which is a GRADUATE business school. We're discussing an undergraduate education in business right now. </p>
<p>Hmmm...85% of students graduating from UVA's McIntire School of Commerce before they graduate, and many of them at companies on Wall Street. Tell me which Dartmouth undergrad program has that high of a hiring rate upon graduation...especially on Wall Street?</p>
<p>Also, for a school so successful, why do you have such a low endowment? $2.4 billion? You would think in the 300 years of existence, Dartmouth would have raised more than that. Being a public school, UVa only started fundraising in the 80's/90's when the state starting cutting back. Within 20 years, UVA's endowment has grown to $3.4 billion - mostly from alumni donations and sharp investment practices. Plus, as I mentioned before, we're embarking on a $3 billion capital campaign in the Fall (we've already raised $1 billion of it), and a good part of that money will go to helping low & middle income kids attend UVa. In fact, UVa gives full rides to low-income kids. Does Dartmouth really help out low-income kids like UVa, Harvard, and Princeton does? </p>
<p>There's more important things in life than prestige (which seems so important to you)...like really giving kids of all backgrounds a chance to succeed and make a difference in this world.</p>
<p>Oops, I accidentally erased part of it when I was editing. I meant to say that 85% of McIntire grads have a job before they graduate. Which Dartmouth undergrad programs have that kind of a hiring rate?</p>
<p>Sologigolo, well, you can say what you like about undergrad business degrees, but there is a growing demand for them, and schools like UVa and Wharton are filling that demand. UVA's is a 2 year program that you enter at the beginning of your 3rd year at the University. This allows you in your freshman & sophomore years to get a strong liberal arts education before entering McIntire, plus you can double major in a non-business field while at the business school. Read this from Business Week.</p>
<p>--</p>
<p>MBA-like Respect</p>
<p>That fact underscores a curious transformation that has taken place in higher education in recent years. As the economy rebounded after the dot-com bust, students have been drawn to college business programs, and recruiters, seeking to ramp up their diminished ranks of middle managers, have followed. Under increased pressure from students and recruiters, business schools have revamped their offerings, putting more emphasis on specialized classes, real-world experience, and soft skills such as leadership. Once a refuge for students with poor grades and modest ambitions, many undergraduate business programs now get MBA-like respect. For many graduates, these programs are now so good that the MBA is almost beside the point, an academic credential for career switchers and those with corner office dreams but unnecessary for mere mortals.</p>
<p>The undergraduate business degree is now clearly on the path to respectability. With 54% of employers planning recruiting trips to undergraduate campuses in 2006 and undergraduate hiring expected to surge by 14.5% -- its third consecutive double-digit increase -- starting salaries for grads in all majors are rising. But business majors have fared better than any other discipline, with starting salaries up more than 49% since 1996, compared with 39% for engineering students and 29% for liberal arts grads, according to the National Association of Colleges & Employers. The typical business grad now earns $43,313, about $8,000 less than engineering students can expect. But for undergraduates at top schools, the average can easily exceed $50,000.</p>
<p>Hot to Hire</p>
<p>Even with rising salaries, recruiters are relying on undergraduate degree holders to fill more jobs. In just three years, Microsoft Corp. (MSFT ) has increased its recruiting on college campuses, including some MBAs, by 60%. Defense contractor Raytheon Co. (RTN ) plans to hire nearly 1,200 new graduates this year, and 3 out of 4 will be from undergraduate programs. To keep the talent pipeline full, Raytheon maintains close relationships with 26 campuses, assigning executives to each school to work with key professors to identify the best job candidates. Even so, with Raytheon's business growing at a double-digit clip, the company plans to recruit from 120 schools this year, according to Keith Pedon, senior vice-president for human resources.</p>
<p>It's not just Raytheon, either. When the Big East career fair took place at New York's Madison Square Garden in March, there were 81 companies pitching to 1,000 students, and organizers had to turn away 50 more companies for lack of space.</p>
<p>For a better understanding of the shifting landscape of undergraduate business education, BusinessWeek last year undertook an extraordinary research project. The goal: to rank the best college business programs in America. Among other things, the project included a survey with Boston's Cambria Consulting Inc. of nearly 100,000 business majors at 84 of the best U.S. colleges and universities, a second survey of college recruiters, and a third survey of the business programs themselves. If one thing emerges from the data, it's that the programs are, in a sense, all grown up and evolving in ways that mimic the developmental arc of the MBA itself.</p>
<p>Like graduate B-schools, the undergraduate programs are separating into two clearly discernible tiers, with the 50 programs in our ranking standing head and shoulders above the rest. They're also dividing along the same philosophical split that now partitions the MBA world. There are those, including many at or near the top of the list, that are following a rigorously academic model, with a heavy emphasis on economics, statistics, finance, and accounting. Programs like Wharton's fall into this group, which generally do not require -- or give credit for -- internships, even though many students get them on their own. They also use MBA teaching methods such as case studies, simulations, and team projects.</p>
<p>But at the great majority of business programs, students are exposed to less business theory -- too little, in the view of some experts -- and a heavy dose of practical training. A quarter century ago, virtually every business program in America followed the latter model. At top schools that's no longer the case. "What you're seeing is a polarization," says Barbara E. Kahn, director of Wharton's undergraduate business division. "This is different from what it was 25 years ago. It wasn't the academic experience it is today."</p>
<p>Few schools typify the scholarly approach more than Wharton, which landed in the No. 1 spot largely on the strength of its academic quality. But the same could be said for any of the schools near the top of the list. At No. 2 University of Virginia's McIntire School of Commerce, students said the two-year format left them two additional years to explore the school's numerous offerings but made for a tough course load in the junior year and a pressure-cooker atmosphere in which many thrived.</p>
<p>globalist, I'm gonna have to chip in to support Dartmouth regrading its finance. Yup, dartmouth may not have as big an endowment as UVA, but this doesnt apply to its financial aid policy to students. I got a full ride from Dartmouth as do many people I know. dartmouth has been very generous so far with their aid package. I do not think your statment that Dartmouth doesn't create opportunites for low-income kids is true at all. In fact, it does and does helluva good job. I didnt want to engage myself in this word battle but seeing that you are throwing around wild assumptions without definite proof, I've gotta speak up. YES, Dartmouth does do justice to us poor students here.
About Wall Street, this is just my two cents. i must tell you, my initial criteria for college selection was to get myself a place at Wall Street. I took this up to my uncle, who was a former Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley man and many other people in the business field, and they immediately sprung out several names, among which Dartmouth was placed at the top. My uncle now regularly recruits for Credit Suisse First Boston and he admits that Wall Street do indeed loves Dartmouth UNDERGRAD( underline the undergrad). This is information from an insider so I think you should seriously consider it. UVA, undoubtedly is a great school, and it has many features that we ought to respect, but unfortunately, for a career in banking and the path to Wall Street, Dartmouth apparently seems to be the brighter choice.
In the end, though, like I said before, they are both great schools and we shouldn't turn this topic into one that ridicules both schools because then we are blurting out wild assumptions that have no back ups. My opinion, again, is that they are academically equivalent, yet Dartmouth still has an edge over UVA in terms of getting its Undergrad students a place in the coveted Wall Street firms.</p>
<p>Hey slipper, it says you can't accept any more private messages, but could you send me a private message with the full URL for the vault.com article that says where all the top firms recruit?</p>
<p>Globalist- 2.4 Billion for 5700 students vs UVA 3.4 Billion for 23,500! Are you a UVA grad? I would think a UVA grad would be a little smarter and understand ENDOWMENT PER STUDENT is what matters. Dartmouth is more than FOUR times richer. Wow. Dartmouth, per student, is one of the richest schools in the country. </p>
<p>Dartmouth UNDERGRAD is loved by wall street. In fact, I know recruiters who like Dartmouth undergrad more than Tuck (to be honest most Dartmouth kids end up at the big three MBA programs HWS). Look at MBA placement at Stanford, Harvard MBA, Columbia, and Wharton (when size is accounted for), Dartmouth is top 7 at all of these programs, UVA isn't top 20 at any of them. If you argue UVA grads go to Darden, then great, because Darden isn't even considered a top ten MBA. </p>
<p>5/7 top consulting firms recruit at Dartmouth, 4/6 big banks. UVA has only half this amount. Dartmouth has the closest reputation to HYPW on Wall Street of any other school. As a former recruiter I know this. MBA placement, the quality of the firms that recruit on campus, and the number of grads hired all show this. I have no idea where you come from.</p>
<p>Dartmouth has inacted similar programs to HYP giving away loan free tuition so YES, Dartmouth is MUCH MORE GENEROUS than UVA. They've been for three years where UVA will be after the campaign if they are lucky. </p>
<p>If I didn't have other things to do right now I would refute your information even further, putting UVA in the same league at Dartmouth is laughable. I think you misunderstand that I support Dartmouth because of its prestige. that is not the case. I support Dartmouth because its one of the most amazing schools in the country, which UVA is not.</p>
<p>globalist: Wahoo Wah, but, man, your stats are lacking....Dartmouth offers a full ride (no loans) to nearly everyone with income less than $45k.</p>
<p>btw: before you Cavs start bragging about your University's new finaid policy, you should note that it is NEW in the past year or two. Prior to this new policy, UVa had one of the worst finaid policies for low income kids of all major public universities. If I recall, in an article last year, one of UVa's Trustees didn't even know that Virginia had such a low % of low income kids, <8% Pell Grantees; IMO< he should have resigned for not fulfilling his fiduciary responsibility to be knowledgeable about what is going on, but that is off point. In contrast, the UC's have 35% Pell Grantees, or 4 times the amount of low income kids than in Charlottesville. Even USC, a private school, has 30+% of Pell Grantees. Having lived a long time in Virginia, I know there were/are plenty of low income folks in the state, if the Trustees only wanted to find them prior to an embarrassing article in the press (Wash Post or NYT).</p>
<p>Globalist is literally arguing UVAs weakest points (endowment/ student, financial aid) against a school that is far and above it in these areas. his strategy is to selectively reveal information, avoiding the truth. He should be ashamed.</p>
<p>My point is if Dartmouth is so good at producing successful alums in Wall Street and elsewhere, why are you working on only a $1.6 billion campaign of which youve raised just over $600 million? And thats with 49% of Dartmouth alums giving back. Why does Harvard, Yale and Princeton have so much more? Arent you all in the same league? UVa (which according to Slipper1234 isnt as highly looked upon in Wall Street and elsewhere) has been able to raise $1 billion in 2 years - thats nearly half of Dartmouths endowment from 200+ of existence. Plus, thats money raised from only 27% of UVa alums giving back. In fact, this is all during the quiet phase of the UVa campaign. The official start of the $3 billion campaign isnt until this Fall. After that point, Im sure more UVa alums will start giving as well. </p>
<p>By the way, the $3.4 billion is only UVAs general endowment. Each school and scholarship foundation has its own endowment, which is not included in the general endowment. For example, the Law School has close to $300 million and the Jefferson Scholars Foundation has between $100-200 million. If you look at the NACUBO endowment list of colleges, UVa is listed twice showing UVas general endowment and the Law Schools endowment. It doesnt list the money from McIntires, Dardens, and the other schools related foundations. So, UVa has more money than you think, which is why the McIntire School of Commerce is able to build a A BRAND NEW UNDERGRADUATE BUSINESS SCHOOL COMPLEX due to open Fall 2007, and much of the construction money is from private donations.</p>
<p>BlueBayou, I didnt find that article you refer to as surprising. It was no secret that many UVa students come from money and didnt qualify for financial aid. (When a study was done 3 years ago, 58% of UVa students came from families w/ yearly incomes between $100K-$199K, and 22% came from families w/ incomes over $200K/year.) When Thomas Jefferson first established UVa, he had to fight for every penny from the state the same legislature that denied his desire to create a state-wide public school system from elementary to high school. I once read that at UVAs opening, the University was as expensive as Harvard. (Thankfully, the state eventually started funding UVa thus lowering tuition costs.) So, from its beginning - partly due to the states unwillingness to truly fund higher education and its racial laws - a certain type of student was attracted to UVa. Until 1970, UVa was all white and all male like Yale, etc. After 1970, UVa started reaching out to women, minorities and low-income students. Now, there are more women students than male, and the University has one of the high percentages of black students and among the highest black student graduation rates in the country. Regarding financial aid, in the 90s when that state dropped its funding from 25% to 8%, UVa was forced to raise its tuition thus inadvertently squeezing out poorer students. (In the 80's, UVa had a lot more low-income students - around 25%.) So, the University began fundraising in order to keep its quality of education high and to help improve its financial aid, which before the 90s was funded by the state. </p>
<p>Personally, Im glad the article was written, because its been a lightning rod for UVa not to depend on the vagaries of state funding and to raise more money on its own to help increase its economic diversity. This year, 8-10% of UVAs incoming class are low-income students and are getting full-rides. Virginia is hoping to increase that number next year. </p>
<p>Look, Dartmouth is a great school. Yes, I know that companies respect and hire Dartmouth undergrads. I dont doubt those things in a second, but if were going to debate about undergraduate business, to say that Dartmouth outshines UVa in that area is ridiculous for no other reason than the fact that Dartmouth doesnt have an undergraduate business school - especially one where 85% of students have a job before they graduate.</p>
<p>wow sounds like globalist has a really big inferiority complex</p>
<p>i have no idea why he is arguing that UVA is a better school than dartmouth. UVA isnt even in the same league</p>