<p>NSM, I've already had multiple discussions with my son about his personal responsibility when it comes to alcohol. To the extent that your post implies that I skipped this step, it is erroneous. </p>
<p>I do not think that my talking to my son about being alert to those around him absolves others from their own personal responsibility when it comes to alcohol, and in no way would I say that Lucifer's death, for instance, was his friends' fault. But I do think that all us have a responsibilty to those around us - if we see someone in trouble we should act. Since most college students live in dorms, there are often many others around when drunk students are returned to their rooms .... and I do not think it is unrealistic to hope that those educated about the signs of severe alcohol poisoning might see something and call for help. Kids are often reluctant to get authorities involved, but in these scenarios they need to be encouraged to nonetheless call campus security.</p>
<p>The part of your post that I would agree with is that if one student is dangerously drunk, it is all too likely that those with him are also drunk, and their judgment will be impaired. Nonetheless, I guess you can hope that warnings bells go off anyways. </p>
<p>In the course of my conversation last night, I learned that my son and his friends did call campus security last fall, when they were concerned about a classmate they found walking home from a party, and stopped to help.</p>
<p>My oldest son's school modified their alcohol policy with a "Good Sam" rule....if you bring a friend to the ER/call for help and you are intoxicated you will not acquire points. He says, however, that students who have been drinking are still reluctant to help if they are impaired. I also wonder if everyone is drunk, are they truly aware of just how serious a friend's condition might be?</p>
<p>I am a UVA graduate, and things 20 years ago were not much different. "Trash Can" grain parties; "Purple Jesus Parties" (bathtub with purple drink mix, everyone brings a fifth of something clear to toss in...I know EGADS); pre-gaming;--all available in the dorms. Hazing..yes both sororities and fraternities. My Pi Phi roommate needed to have rocks an debris removed from her knee after being forced to drink a six pack of Magnum--and her big sister told her to drive herself to the ER. "Tie Shots" at football games (Sig Eps had plungers full of drinks they carried to the games); beer bongs; a jillion different drinking games. Foxfield Races...an excuse to start earlier. Easters--they finally had to put the kabosh on that. Greek Week wasn't much better. Most of the events had alcohol, and the games seemed to based on drinking x amount and then attempting something. "Dizzy Lizzy" comes to mind. </p>
<p>One of the worst was "fourth year fifth" where on the occasion of the last home football game fourth year students would try to drink an entire fifth of liquor. We had to bail my husband's fraternity brother out of jail. It was "the culture" of the University. Most of us had NO IDEA just how sick you can get, even off "just beer." Particularly if you weren't a heavy drinker, didn't have food in your stomach, etc...the grain alcohol was the worst. By the time kids figured out they'd had too much, they were just a few minutes from passing out. </p>
<p>While I was there, most of the alcohol injuries were from falling off balconies, falling down stairs, or getting hit by cars. But one night Sigma Chi rented a UHaul and "rolled" their pledges. Although the driver had only " a beer or two," he overcorrected coming over a hill, tipped the UHaul and killed two pledges, seriously wounded one (paralyzed/ventilator); and killed the person in the car that the UHaul tipped over upon. Wake up call? No.</p>
<p>With the drinking age now at 21, supposedly the fraternities are dry, but I know one alumnus who represents his fraternity worked against dry rush, and dry fraternities. He also does not have college aged kids.</p>
<p>We can try to educate our kids, but after reading through the deceased's comments it is very hard to convince a young person with words. We need to keep trying though.</p>
<p>This is an excellent conversation about the dangers of overindulgence in alcohol. However, we don't know why this young man died yet. There is to be an autopsy.</p>
<p>It seems to me that the drinking is worse since the legal age went up. Mini, do you have info on that? If it is not related to raising the legal age, then what IS it?</p>
<p>I got the Sam Spady cards last summer when info was posted before, and I gave them to my D, her friends, and my nephew prior to them leaving for college. If nothing else it puts a name and a face on the problem and gives them symptoms to look for. </p>
<p>Of course the points made by others re: impaired kids being poor guardians' of their friends and fear of calling 911 are very important. Maybe the designated driver concept should extend to college-- have a designated sober friend to keep an eye on the situation.</p>
<p>On a related matter, D told me about a boy at her school who is really odd, depressed, etc-- and it had not occured to her to call health services or the RA. (!) I told her abou the two or three college-age suicides that I had first hand knowledge of, and I urged her to take action.</p>
<p>I think it's the mentality that "if there are 200 people who know about this, I am only 1/200 responsible for reporting it."</p>
<p>FWIW, My D is the total 'designated driver' type and is very responsible-- so I found it a bit chilling that she would have shrugged off any personal responisbility in this situation as easily as she had.</p>
<p>texastaximom, saying "things 20 years ago were not much different" isn't very accurate. As a current UVA student who's been around the party scene quite a bit, I can honestly say that the things you described (which I've heard about from other alums and my mom) are relatively uncommon nowadays. UVA's still got a big party scene for a top 25 university, but it's much tamer than it was in the 80's.</p>
<p>Lots of talk about college policy, how to identify the danger signals but the important question is why binge drinking is so pervasive at colleges around the country. I do not pretend to know the answer but i suspect the causes run far deeper than peer pressure and availability, When self-destructive behavior becomes a defining aspect of a community( more than 44% of college students are binge drinkers(JACH,2002) and approximately 1/2 of college students have had a depression episode during which they had trouble functioning( ACHA-2004)), we need to ask ourselves why?</p>
<p>With statistics like these the odds are that these problems are not those of someone elses kids but may be problems with ours. And in some cases the root cause may be found in the way we have raised our children. And let me be brutally honest. In our gated CC community, most are parents of high achievers. Because of this, these young people have not had "normal" childhoods. I am not saying that this is a bad thing, I am merely saying that it may not be a normal thing. </p>
<p>However, I suspect that some of us have placed stresses on our children, either intentionally or unintentionally. Some are defining our success through the successes of our children(I call it the college car decal syndrome). Some have bought into the cult of self-esteem. Some expect only the best for our children and doggedly pursue it. And others have trouble letting go, overprotective, and over involved in the lives of their young adults. What must this do to their actual self-esteem.</p>
<p>as a parent of a daughter who attends a diverse inner city public school, I see far more to be concerned about in "families" where adults are barely involved with children and adolescents, than in families where they are perhaps" over involved."
Then again I think adolecents need as much parenting and guidance as they ever did, maybe even more.</p>
<p>Kids who commit violent acts- kids who are disengaged- kids who play russian roulette with their bodies when they take up risky behaviors like drinking and driving- these kids want adults to help them set guidelines and to help them turn their behavior around.
They can't ask for help- we have to be ready to use whatever opportunities we have to show them support-</p>
<p>"NSM, I've already had multiple discussions with my son about his personal responsibility when it comes to alcohol. To the extent that your post implies that I skipped this step, it is erroneous. :</p>
<p>I wasn't suggesting that at all. I am saying that anyone is wrong who, for instance, thinks that somehow roommates, friends can be totally responsible for preventing deaths like Lucifer's. I am NOT suggesting that's what you think. I DO think that is what some students think should happen, and from what I read of Lucifer's posts, he was one of the students who thought that friends could prevent their friends alcohol-related deaths.</p>
<p>My D "knows" the sucicide warning signs yet somehow just failed to feel it was her duty to act on them. And normally this is a kid I would say has good judgement.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It seems to me that the drinking is worse since the legal age went up. Mini, do you have info on that? If it is not related to raising the legal age, then what IS it?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, one theory I've read about is that ours is really the first generation of parents with college aged kids who have essentially already "been there and done that." Kids looking to show their independence may feel they need to raise the bar on the behaviors. With the current generation of parents staying fit, looking younger and even dressing like their own kids, the kids feel the need to break away in increasingly dramatic ways. To me, the opinions of "Lucifer" and others on this board to the effect that kids must be given unlimited freedoms while still living at home or run the risk of being overwhelmed in college is pretty misguided. Habits that are formed at a young age can be harder, not easier, to break. And if certain patterns are already old hat by the end of HS then can't that just lead to even more risk taking in college - the opposite of what lucifer and posters like him (including some parents) have suggested?</p>
<p>I even wonder, with all the time lucifer spent on the parents forum, if he fully believed what he was saying or if it was really all a cry for help. A terrible tragedy.</p>
<p>I think emeraldkity may have a good point here. I remember talking with my son close to the end of his senior year in high school. He told me how much he appreciated me being at home and involved in his life. He said most of the kids he knew who were involved in drinking, drugs, early sexual activity, etc. did not have parents who were available when needed or who kept close tabs on them. They either came from single parent homes where the parent had to work long hours, or they had two parents deeply involved in careers, and they were often left to fend for themselves. Much as teens may protest, I think they really DO need their parents to be actively involved in their lives.</p>
<p>I should add that, although we were available and involved, our son actually had fewer rules to follow than most of his friends. However, that was because we had been strict when he was little and gave him responsibility and freedom as we saw he could handle it. I think some kids also go wild in college if they have had strict rules at home and are now "breaking free" and declaring their independence.</p>
<p>"Children are like flying kits held in the hand of parents until the day the string is released and they soar away to find their own heights. Wise parents loosen the string with each passing year so that their children will not become dizzy from the sudden heights, as when a string snaps from having been too tightly held."</p>
<p>A few years ago I did training with a group called FCD (freedom from chemical dependency). It was excellent training professionally. Personally I took away a lot as well including one compelling message. The single most important variable in terms of the likelihood of an individual kid becoming a substance user/abuser is whether or not a family has dinner together. You can do everything else right or wrong, but this seemed pretty clear cut to me. So, we continued to do what we had always done with our teenagers- we had dinner together- 5 nights a week throughout their primary and secondary education. We have and had the usual 'two parents working, often traveling' busy lives that many lead. Even with that, when one parent was gone, the other was home, and when both parents were home, dinner was eaten together. Now that the two eldest are gone, the younger one will do this for the next 7+ years until she hopefully makes the sort of reasonable adjustments and choices her brothers have made thus far.</p>
<p>Since where we live there is no drinking age, kids don't drive and there are kids from many cultures(with differing attitudes about alcohol)- our children had an atypical experience in HS in many ways. Dinner time gave plenty of opportunities to talk about life, goals, frustrations, joys, rumors, truths,etc... We had few 'assumptions' and few, but very important, rules...</p>
<p>I remember reading recently in USA today about a law passed in Colorado that gave students immunity from legal responsibility if they bring a friend to the hospital suffering from alcohol or drug overdose. There was no mention in the article as to 1) whether such laws exist in other states and 2) if their existence is well publicized to college students. Does anyone here know the answer to that?</p>
<p>If fear of being arrested or held responsible is keeping young people from bringing their dying friends to the hospital, then addressing it legislatively might be one way to direct the pain of this senseless loss.</p>
<p>personally- I think that is not applicable for every family
We never ate dinner together- for years my husband was on 2nd shift- which meant he left at about 2pm- and got home about midnight.
He often worked weekends- so while on the weekends we saw him if I or the girls didn't have any other commitments, often that was the only time they saw him- weekend mornings while he was getting ready for work.
What we did do was have a yearly vacation together- & try and go out to breakfast once a week , and had family meetings styled on Jane Nelsens book Positive discipline.
For families with kids with special needs, reg family dinners or even special family dinners are often just not realistic. ( why do you think we go away every year for the winter break ;) )</p>
<p>( and despite this- despite the fact that my husband is an alcoholic who quit drinking when my oldest was in high school- and the rest of his family are still heavy drinkers- my oldest didn't even go out and have a drink till she had been 21 for 3 months, and that was to have a beer with a friend and their elementary school teacher!- on the other hand I have friends and relatives who make a big deal about family dinners as well and their kids have fake ids and are so clueless that they whip them out when they are out to dinner with their family!)</p>
<p>How did people find the student on facebook? I just looked up his name from the news article and its not on there, so are you sure it is the same person?</p>
<p>Dinner around the table is good protection, but it doesn't save all souls.</p>
<p>It probably saves garden variety rascals, but wouldn't begin to cure mental illness, for example. Under-seventeens with a drive to drink are often struggling with underlying physiological or mental imbalance problems, wouldn't you agree, Roby?</p>
<p>So far, mine appear to be garden variety rascals. Garden variety by the grace of God ....</p>