D wants to enlist in the military - help!

Parents Forum
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<p>Hunt: "Haha, I decided that before I beat up on you any further" . . .</p>

<p>Hunt, have you taken the Dale Carnegie course that you tried to hoist upon haha? </p>

<p>If the answer is yes, you should politely request a refund. </p>

<p>If the answer is no, you should take your own advice and enroll ASAP.</p>

<p>Califa, I hope some of these posts have been helpful to you. As I told my S, he should expect some harsh detractors, especially at Berkeley and in San Francisco, when he's in uniform. The military does involve life and death, so it's a very emotional and intense topic.</p>

<p>Just another issue to raise with your D, Califa. If she's like my S, she'll care less about the detractors and maintain her own convictions.</p>

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<p>
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I am trying to help the OP. Most of the responses I've read on here are basically saying the OP should let her daughter join the military and espousing positive aspects of a military career

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<p>The fact is that once the OP's daughter turns 18 there is nothing the OP can do to prevent her from signing up. That is the reality.</p>

<p>There are plenty of kids who sign up and don't tell their parents until after.
Most of the suggestions for the OP to learn with her daughter and explore all aspects of the military and military life - including careers, officer and enlisted - are excellent. Perhaps in time the interest will wane and all of this will be a moot point. In any case, keeping open the lines of communication without judgement is important for a healthy parent/child relationship.</p>

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<p>Thanks to all who replied to my post. I appreciate all of your thoughts, and you have given me some helpful ideas. I'm going to try to respond to everyone individually (sorry if I missed anyone), but first a few general replies:</p>

<p>I'm having a hard time sorting how much of this is really her wanting to join the military to "serve her country", and how much of it is to assert her own identity, a form of adolescent rebellion, and how much of it is looking for the structure/father figure she is lacking at home. I tend to think it's more of the last two, because when I mention other ways of "serving the country" than the military, she doesn't want to listen. There's the Foreign Service, the FBI, the CIA, State Department - and that could use her talents (she's especially good at foreign languages). It seems to me that if "serving the country" were her real motive, then she would be more willing to consider how her talents could be put to best use. </p>

<p>When she says she wants "the enlisted experience", I think she'll be very disillusioned; she doesn't like being told what to do, and she would have to take a lot of orders as an enlisted marine. As for counseling, I wasn't going to post this (even anonymously), but I'm very disturbed when she says that if she can't get in the military, she will kill herself. I can't tell how much of that is teenage melodrama, and how much is genuine cause for concern. </p>

<p>Another reason I want her to keep her options open is that no one should "put all of your eggs in one basket." We know a kid who enlisted, blew out his knee in basic, and received a medical discharge. He'll never be in the military now, and he was so disappointed that he spent a year not doing much of anything. Now he's at the local CC and doing fine. So if D doesn't get in the military, she'll need to look at other options. </p>

<p>I should have put in my original post that she says she doesn't want to go to college because she hates HS and doesn't want to "waste" four years of her life. She doesn't understand that college is very different from HS, and it wouldn't be four years (between her AP's, if she passes all of the tests, and her CC classes, she should start with over 40 college credits). Also, she says she doesn't have the "maturity" to be an officer, to which I reply that no 15 year old does, but that would change after college, when she's older.</p>

<p>I'll admit that I would prefer her not to join the military in any way (and that I am against this war), but if she does, I think she would be happier going the officer route because she hates being told what to do, and she would have more options, plus I'll admit that I value education for its intrinsic value, not just for its instrumental value in terms of careers. I'm trying to approach it as trying college for just one year and exploring her options; the miliary isn't going anywhere. </p>

<p>Those of you who posted about preserving our relationship are right. Above all, I want to maintain a close relationship with her, and I frequently tell her that I will always love her, even when I don't agree with her her choices. </p>

<p>NorthstarMom - thank you for your thoughtful comments. I have encouraged her to look at the academies, but she says she couldn't do the math (they require calculus, and although she's doing well in everything else, she's struggling to maintain a C in pre-cal). I've told her that C's in math are fine, and if they admit someone, they'll help them with the more challenging classes. I'm encouraging her to keep her options open. Above all, in addition to the very real fear of all the terrible things that happen to some people in the military, I'm afraid that she'll be stuck and not be able to get out.</p>

<p>DougBetsy & LFWB dad - I'm encouraging her to look at the Reserves or ROTC and maybe she'll listen someday; I hope so.</p>

<p>Muffy - thanks for your suggestion to talk to the GC. We did when we went to go over D's classes for next year, and the GC is on my side. When I said she needs a Plan B, the GC said "you need a plan C and D too" - but D did not listen. Maybe next time she will.</p>

<p>PackMom & RacinReaver - you're right that she is influenced by the JROTC instructor; fortunately he's is encouraging her to apply to one of the academies or do ROTC in college. However, the HS is full of recruiters (thanks to No Child Left Behind) and D listens more to them. I can prevent her from taking the ASVAB until she turns 18, but can't stop her from talking to recruiters. </p>

<p>Consolation - I think she has been sold a bill of goods by these recruiters. Part of the problem is that they make enlisting sound so good that D isn't looking at other options.</p>

<p>latetoschool - thanks for reminding me that there can be a very positive side to peer pressure. I'm hoping that, when her friends are applying to colleges, visiting colleges, and getting excited, that she won't want to be excluded. I think I'm going to make her go on some campus visits (she does look at the mail she gets from colleges).</p>

<p>1sokkermom - all my best to your S who is getting commissioned in the army (and to your D, hope her health gets better). I can relate; if my D goes in the military, whether it's officer or enlisted (but especially if enlisted), I will be very nervous too.</p>

<p>rrah - thanks for the link. I have to admit that if she can't get a waiver, I will be very relieved.</p>

<p>timely - thanks for telling me about Texas A&M. One of the things that draws her to the military is the spit and polish, drill team aspect, and she would get more of that in college than by enlisting, so she might actually look at that (and I'm sure she'll want to watch that video on youtube).</p>

<p>ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad & HisGraceFillsMe - I am trying not to alienate D, but I'm not going to say I'm thrilled with the prospect of her enlisting. I want her to explore other options. As for the car, one reason I won't get her one if she's enlisting is that she can't take it with her, so there's no reason for her to have one. If she were going to college, even if she couldn't take it with her freshman year, when she comes home she would need it to get to a summer job, etc. Plus, I feel that if she thinks enlisting is so wonderful, then she can buy her own car on her military pay. </p>

<p>haha - I appreciate your frankness, and I don't think you were obnoxious at all (in fact, I agree with you, otherwise I wouldn't be so anguished at the thought of D enlisting). </p>

<p>JustaMomof4 - and I appreciate your frankness, and hope and pray that you are right when you say you see a bright future.</p>

<p>oldfort - thanks for sharing about your nephew who decided West Point wasn't for him. My D doesn't have quite what he has, but I think she's equally unprepared for what the military is really like. This is a kid who hated spending a weekend on a Girl Scout camping trip with the bugs and other girls who "didn't like" her and "were mean" - so I think a barracks and boot camp would be that much worse. Problems is that by that point, she would have signed her life away, and she would be misearable with no way out.</p>

<p>Chedva - thank you for saying that you would react as I did. I am trying to compromise with her and to maintain our relationship. Hopefully she will get the message that I will always love her, even when we disagree. </p>

<p>Again, many thanks to everyone who replied.</p>

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<p>
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I'm trying to say that the OP does still have some measure of power over her daughter's life and shouldn't just give in like many others in this post seem to think she should. If the OP tries to reason with her daughter and her daughter doesn't listen, she needs to resort to some sort of penalties if she doesn't want to give in. That's tough love.

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haha, would you respond in the same way if the question were "My D wants to run away with her 30 year old boyfriend . . . Help!" Or would your response be "She's an adult, it's her choice, leave her alone"? My guess is the latter. You are only saying "OP, you can punish her" because you don't like the military. The fact of the matter is (as you probably know from your 18 year old vantage point) is that the "tough love" you are suggesting doesn't work with rational, legal decision-making for teenagers. "Tough love" is used when a kid is out of control and the parents have no choice. Tough love in this situation means the parent cuts herself off from her child. I don't think that's what the OP had in mind.</p>

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<p>Justamomof4, I'm not saying that people in the military are stupid or uneducated. I think it's stupid and uneducated to join the military right out of high school if there are other options such as going to college first. Some people can't afford to go to college, so they join the military to make money to support their education. My comments are not directed at such people. I think that the OP should do everything she can to discourage her daughter from joining the military. Obviously the daughter can make her own decision at 18, but I'm talking about preventative measures. You don't have to agree with me. I don't care if you think I'm ignorant or an elitist; these are my opinions, and I'm willing to share them even if they get me attacked. I'm not going to form my statements in a way that avoids possibly offending anyone, so stop nitpicking and taking offense at how I word my statements.</p>

<p>My grandpa lied about his age to join the army, and I think it was a stupid move. He never regretted it, but I don't know if he would have made the same decision if he was a teenager now and had the option of a college education instead.</p>

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<p>Chedva, I would certainly not support allowing a teen to run off with a 30-year-old; that's just stupid. You're right when you say that I don't like the military, but I hate the abuse of the military even more. Sending children into unjust wars wrought with greed and the very real possibility of death is not a viable choice when other options exist. I don't mean tough love as in cutting yourself off from your child; I mean being strong in your position and doing whatever you can to reasonably persuade your child to your viewpoint. I'm not advocating extreme measures.</p>

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<p>I had a 15-year-old who was all set to enlist. He went and spoke to several recruiters (I'm sure that he was older than 15 when he spoke to them though.) </p>

<p>Here's how we handled it, fwiw. We told him that he wasn't going anywhere until he was 18. However, we told him that he could explore whatever he wanted and we would be happy to listen and talk about the military at any time. </p>

<p>We heard a lot about the military those years, but he gradually came to realize that enlisting at 18 was not for him. He is now a first class in a Navy ROTC unit, and well on the way of fulfilling his true dream, which was to be a naval officer.</p>

<p>In general, I just don't think it's wise to argue in a determined way against one's child about the military. With OP, though, there isn't even a decision to be made. D can't join up now. I'd favor letting her say and dream what she wishes. I wouldn't actively resist her when she says, for example, that she'd rather be enlisted or that she can't qualify as an officer. Kids change their views all the time if we let them. Our son was going to be a Navy Seal, and all he could talk about was Richard Marcinko. But he got over that, and came to a different view of Marcinko as well. </p>

<p>But if we go strongly contrary, then we make them defend, and we make them refuse to change.</p>

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<p>ADad,lol, My 1C NROTC S read all those Marcinko books too!</p>

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<p>I have mentioned the service academies to my rising senior (he is very OCD and I thought the military would be good for him) and he has shown no interest. I'm not trying to push him into the military but presenting all options (he wants to go to college). His mother however took great exception to me even suggesting them. She has two brothers in the military so there isn't an issue there...just the fact that it is her son. If he had decided to pursue it she would have come to grips with it. I understand how any parent can want their child to not go... Give it a couple of years. Things change. Her freshman year my daughter wanted to be a chef. She's not a rising junior studying chemical engineering. Patience.</p>

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This isn't the UN; I don't see why I should be concerned with being diplomatic or conciliatory with my words.

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<p>Then you should not be surprised when people disregard them. You might then be able to crow to yourself about how you are logically superior to those people, but you still won't have accomplished anything.</p>

<p>This girl has time to think it over. I wanted to go to the Air Force Academy when I was 15. Then I visited it, and decided that I didn't, really (what I really wanted was an excuse to escape being pigeonholed into a certain career and life path, but I didn't understand this until college). And if you had told me where I <em>would</em> end up going to college before my senior year of high school, I would have laughed. I would have laughed even harder if you told me what some of my extracurriculars were in college, or what I would be doing now.</p>

<p>I think the military is an honorable career. It may or may not be right for this girl. But if she is using it as a proxy for something else (like wanting structure) she may be able to find other ways to do that.</p>

<p>One possible "middle ground" approach is the Merchant Marine. It's an auxiliary to the Navy, and is in the service of the country. Merchant marine academies are similar to military academies (I know people who attend them), and have the sort of camaraderie among the community that the uniformed services do.</p>

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<p>Here is a link to info on additional colleges with Corps of Cadets. I know great kids who have gone through the Norwich and Virgina Tech programs and feel they had the best of both worlds, getting a college education while living a military lifestyle. This gives much more of a military experience than ROTC at a college that does not have a Corps of Cadets, and the admissions criteria is less selective than that of the academies. I think it's worth asking her to investigate this option with an open mind.</p>

<p>The</a> American Senior Military Colleges</p>

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<p>lextalionis - thank you for your beautiful posts. It helps to know that your initial reaction was the same as mine when your son wanted to join the Air Force ROTC. I'm terrified that D will enlist and die, or become disfigured (and this is a kid for whom a new zit is a major crisis), or brain damaged or crippled in a war that I and many others don't believe in (there are just and unjust wars and IMHO this one is the latter). </p>

<p>I will encourage her to explore ROTC and the academies, because although I would prefer her not to join the military, it's true that casualty rates are lower for Air Force officers than enlisted marines. I'm not sure why she is so set on the marines (from what I've read, the Air Force treats their people the best) and she doesn't really have an answer. She has a friend who wants to go to MIT on Navy ROTC. Maybe he'll be a good influence on her; I hope so.</p>

<p>It's frustrating to try to get her to research all the options, because she won't look at anything but military websites that are very pro-enlisted. I don't know what to do to get her to consider all sides.</p>

<p>hahaha - I hope you keep speaking (or writing) what you think.
I wish my D had a friend like you. And as long as she is under 18, I am going to use whatever influence over her that I have. One thing I'm doing is that, if she wants to take JROTC next year, she has to go to a summer pre-college program, even if it's only for one week, and if she doesn't pick one, I will for her, since time is running out and spaces are filling quickly. If I have to force her to broaden her horizons, I will.</p>

<p>Momof4 - I don't think I'm being elitist; I don't want anyone killed! Even if my D did not have the ability to go to college, I still would discourage her from enlisting. It's not to denigrate anyone who chooses the military, and I'm the first to admit that it's partially for selfish reasons; I don't want to face the anguish of having my only child die or be permanently damaged by fighting in what I consider an unjust war. But you're absolutely right about keeping communications open. I hope she won't sign papers without telling me first, but when she is 18, she can do what she wants.</p>

<p>ADad - thanks for reminding me how much kids can change. She'll be 16 next week, so she has plenty of time to change. One reason I want her to go to college is exactly that - in college, she can change majors, explore her options, and discover what she wants to do, rather than be locked in to something she hates as an enlisted marine. I'd like for her to fulfill her potential and give herself the chance to find out what her dreams really are.</p>

<p>Again, thanks to everyone for posting! You're all very helpful.</p>

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<p>califa, I'll definitely keep speaking/writing my mind. I'm not one to be silenced in the face of opposition. :) I think you've got a good idea there, and I hope it works out for you. Your daughter might change her mind before she's 18 or even after or maybe she won't. Either way, I wish both of you the best! </p>

<p>I'm not going to be reading/writing anymore in this thread because neither side is going to gain any ground in this argument.</p>

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<p>califa, one thought - I do understand that military recruiters must be allowed at the high school. However, don't you have to consent to have them talk to your minor d? Or can you specifically forbid them (in writing) from talking to your d? If it's the recruiters who are influencing her, this may be a wise move, while of course allowing her to remain in JROTC. (You might also send a letter to any local recruiters telling them that they may not speak to your daughter.) Then she may be more willing to listen to her mentor in JROTC.</p>

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<p>Califa - I it wise to understand the nature of the Marines and the force of their sales pitch. The Air Force sells their high technology, the Army, their doctrine and their approach to being the mightiest land force in the world, the Navy, the their claim to the world's most powerful blue and underwater force the world has known - along with their aristocratic culture and technology. What does the Marines sell? Their culture. It is tough, sometimes brutal, certainly not for everyone - but it is the ultimate democracy - every man and woman a rifleman and everyone imbued with a Marine culture. They have far less resources than any other service - but to the core they think they are better than the other services because of that culture. </p>

<p>I say this not because I think enlistment or ROTC or the academies are desirable - in fact - I think too few who enter really know what they are getting into - but the sales pitch the Marines give has significant elements of fact iand truth in it - and it is an irresistable pitch to a talented kid that craves respect and attention. You ought to understand why it is so attractive to her. There are hosts of employers out there who know just what they are getting when they hire a successful Marine - they are generally a breed all their own. </p>

<p>I have problems with the way the services treat women - I have heard too many negative stories - along with a stepsister with the same kind of talents you daughter has (bright, good scores, attractive, etc.) who ran into trouble with a hostile sexual environment in the Marines and insufficient guile with how to deal with it. It negatively impacted her life for a while, but 20 years on she married a Marine colonel and I must admit she is one of the most competent and effective people I know - she has risen to a significant post in a state agency because, well, she acts like a Marine - and knows how to work and get a job done - impressive as heck. </p>

<p>Given my stepsister's experience - I would definitely recommend ROTC. It is just better to be an officer - all the way around.</p>

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<p>I've scanned earlier posts. One thing that I didn't see discussed, but was a red flag for me, was the daughter's idea that military is like family. That is an idealized view. It can be that way, but not necessarily and it would always be in flux with members rotating in and out. I think she would have more of a family experience in a corps of cadets than she would as an enlisted woman in a line unit. She also might have a better experience in a relatively low-density specialty (like legal specialist). </p>

<p>There are other family-like options. I am sure than many student organizations start to feel like family. The key would be to find something she is really interested in.</p>

<p>Does daughter have a strong sense of herself? If not I would be concerned about her being susceptible to manipulative guys who would pretend to be taking care of her. (Less likely to run into that nonsense if an officer.)</p>

<p>What does family mean to her? If it means pulling together to take care of each other, she might find that but has to be a little careful. If it means shared history or shared interests, there are other options.</p>

<p>I am retired military. I enjoyed my service and am proud of it (actually I feel more honored to have served than proud that I served). Neither of my daughters is interested in the military. If they were, I would be proud but I would have misgivings. I had an uneventual 20 years, but what will it be like for the next 20 years???</p>

<p>About possibility that won't go to college after serving-- I kind of wonder if a person who doesn't go after service is one who would have taken a class or two then dropped out if she went directly from high school.</p>

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I think she would be happier going the officer route because she hates being told what to do

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Keep in mind that officers have to follow orders too. OTOH, so do most people in business. It's true that in business people can always just quit and leave but it's really not that simple when they have mouths to feed, mortgages and car payments to make, and of course, college to pay for.</p>

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I'm terrified that D will enlist and die, or become disfigured (and this is a kid for whom a new zit is a major crisis), or brain damaged or crippled in a war

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I understand the fear but again, please research the actual statistics of a female in the marines actually becoming killed or wounded even now during a war. Unfortunately, it does happen, but statistically, it's a very very low chance. In the branches of the Air Force or Navy it's even lower. There's also always the Coast Guard although some of those people risk their lives as well saving people at sea, it's amazing what these people do thank goodness (they're also in Iraq).</p>

<p>I agree though that at 15 it's permature to be too concerned about this. The best thing you can do is to try to suppress the emotions for now since it's a non-event now anyway, and educate yourselves - both of you. Your expressed anxiety is substantially higher than the reality.</p>

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<p>Interesting article about 5 Brown University students who served in the military (3 officers, 2 enlisted):</p>

<p>Focus</a> profiles five grads who joined the armed forces - Focus</p>

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<p>Re post #46: you are seriously misinformed. US aid that is NOT in the form of arms contracts is significantly lower as a % of GDP than that of a long list of other nations. Look it up.</p>

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<p>Old dinosaurs like me may recall that approximately a decade ago, a father was making the rounds of the talk shows. Why? His son, who had graduated from a well-known New England prep school, had opted to enlist in the USMC instead of attending college. The family caught a lot of flack from their peers for the son's decision.</p>

<p>Google John and/or Frank Schaeffer.</p>