Different way of asking which school question

Parents Forum
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<p>Dad II...I've been thinking about this and I'd like to add something. Please...let your daughter make this decision. SHE is the one going to college next year. So far, she has made wonderful application decisions and has done well in both the acceptance and financial aid departments. On other threads, you mentioned your willingness to pay for a good school. BOTH of these schools are good schools (I'm guessing one is the one in the middle of the country where you posted elsewhere she went for an accepted weekend, and the other is about as far from your home as she can get...perhaps where another relative is currently a grad student?). $20,000 worth of loans is the equivalent of the Stafford loans for four years. That is not an insurmountable amount of debt, and really would represent your daughter's investment in her college education. This is her choice. Please, please...let her make this choice and take a back seat while she is doing so. If she chooses a school because YOU love it but she doesn't...she isn't going to be happy. This is HER next four years. SHE has to live there, study there, and be happy with her choice. </p>

<p>I'm sorry...but I do not believe it's "all about the money". Sometimes you have to look beyond that. In your case, from what you've posted elsewhere on this forum, the cost of either school with the financial aid your daughter received is very doable for you. </p>

<p>Let your daughter make this decision. If you hadn't wanted her to attend one of these schools, you should have told her that UP FRONT....not after the acceptances with good financial aid were received.</p>

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<p>two points to clarify. First, we love our DD much more than we love our wallet. Otherwise, there will not be a discussion.</p>

<p>2ndly, there are more than just $20K loan (total in 4 years) involved. the difference is more than 15K incremental per year with the consideration of additional travel cost. For example, school B could be 80K per 4 years and school A could be 140K per 4 years (not real numbers here). </p>

<p>Let's see what happens when we visit school B. </p>

<p>Thanks for all kind supports.</p>

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<p>Try to look at it this way...even at the most expensive school, YOUR out of pocket costs for four years will be the equivalent of paying ONE year's tuition, room, board and fees. In other words, your daughter is getting the equivalent of THREE free years in college.</p>

<p>Good luck to your daughter as she makes this decision. I was there a couple of years ago with my own daughter and it was agonizing...but my daughter made a great choice (by the way...not the less expensive one nor the one I might have chosen).</p>

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<p>My daughter netted over $3000 one summer working at WalMart.</p>

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<p>Dad II, believe it or not ... School B is not a "dream school" for most students. Heck, <em>most</em> students don't consider it, for many reasons. It may be a dream school for many, many top students. That does not mean that everyone wants to go there! I know several stellar students who weren't interested in School B, for various reasons ... not that it isn't great, but it's not the only great school. School B is presitigous, and many people will ooh & aah if your daughter attends. That's window dressing, though. The truth is, even a non ivy league school can provide your D a fantastic education (maybe even provide your D a BETTER education). What is best for one student is not necessarily best for another. </p>

<p>Let your D help out financially. If she has to forego an internship to make some money, she'll survive. Maybe you won't be able to tell your friends she has a Goldman Sachs internship (or whatever would be a similarly great job for her field), but that won't keep her from being amazingly successful in her life. I am guessing you worked hard to get where you are. She seems willing to work just as hard; let her. $20k is a very manageable debt amount.</p>

<p>PLEASE let your D make the choice. She is in this position because she is a very intelligent, capable young woman. Trust her to know what is best for HER.</p>

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<p>Fireflyscout, we have far too many unemployed people in our neck of the woods for a college student to get a summer job at WalMart! D doesn't get out of school until Memorial Weekend, and she'll be lucky to get a job that pays more than minimum wage ... and even luckier to get 40 hours a week.</p>

<p>But I digress ...</p>

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<p>Dad II-</p>

<p>what about that boat you've always wanted......</p>

<p>We have told our D2 it is her decision.....we do not want to be responsible if she is unhappy with her choice.</p>

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<p>Mathson turned down Harvard for Carnegie Mellon. He has no regrets. Trust your daughter to make the right choice too.</p>

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<p>Two years ago, our son had to decide between three - the in-state university (one of only two state 4-year institutions and the other one is not a viable option, so you can probably figure out which of the very small states we're in) which would have been about $11-12K per year, a private school several hours north of us which would have cost from $0 (full ride) to $24-25 (1/2 tuition scholarship) to full price of $40K, and an out-of-state public that is among the top five on all the top public lists (and is the alma mater of both his parents!) that was $31K (up to $35K for next year?). </p>

<p>The in-state university was not a perfect fit -- had the programs he wanted but probably too big, and, from his perspective, too close (only 5 miles down the road from home). He was torn between the the private in the north and the public in the south. He did not get the full-ride (one of 33 finalists for 17 slots) but did get the 1/2 tuition scholarship and he was ready to accept the full ride if got it.</p>

<p>His mother and I sat down with him and told him that it was his choice of the three. All three were acceptable to us and we could afford all three. But we also made sure he understood the upshot of the costs. The money was in the bank for the in-state public and he would graduate without debt and there would be significant funds for graduate school. The northern private could be paid for out of the money in the bank and out of operations (diverting it from going into savings) -- no debt at graduation but nothing banked for grad school. The southern public would mean he would have to take on the unsubsidized Stafford loans (about $17-18K in debt at graduation), the funds in the bank gone, and nothing banked for grad school. In all cases, he would be responsible for his own spending money/incidental costs. He deliberated between northern private and southern public (in-state public was, he admitted, only still on the list to show us he was being financially prudent) and chose southern public.</p>

<p>None of us regret the decision, but his friends who have gone to the northern private are happy and tell him he would have been happy there, too. (And, sometimes I do indulge in a little "what if?" fantasizing about that full ride that was "thissssss close." -- Hey, $140K is not chump change.)</p>

<p>Is it his decision? Is it your daughter's decision? Mostly. But our job as parents is to guide our children in the process, teach them how to gather the information, how to evaluate it, and how to make such a decision. And, in some instances, to assure that the realities of the situation are understood. </p>

<p>--K9Leader</p>

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<p>Definitely. Well said,K9.</p>

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<p>My son will have $19K in Staffords (the max) wherever he goes unless he chooses the full ride. Fact of life. It's not an unbearable amount of debt, and is in fact what a lot of schools assume students will take on as part of their responsibility towards their education.</p>

<p>My concern about a small program is that if she changes her mind/doesn't get along with the people in it (profs and/or students), it may be tough to transfer to another top school or find another program within the school she's attending that meets her needs.</p>

<p>She got into fabulous schools. Don't worry about the window sticker.</p>

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<p>Dad II -</p>

<p>Your daughter has shown herself to be an accomplished young woman. She has juggled school commitments and outside obligations admirably. I think it is time you gave her the greatest gift of all - your respect. I, too, believe kids need our guidance, but not constant second guessing. </p>

<p>From what you have told us about her, I think she is capable of making a mature decision. For once, convey that to her and congratulate her no matter which school she chooses (without some poorly veiled criticism). At some point, we need to acknowledge them as young adults, otherwise we find ourselves shut out from their lives.</p>

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<p>mathmom, did CMU costed $15K more per year than Harvard for Mathson? </p>

<p>I was also doing some simple math for summer earning. Assume the poor kid starts working right away and he/she has three full months. Let's assume 20 working days per month at $10/h and 8 hour per day. That will get $4,800 total. I have not idea how much tax or other deductables would be for this type of income but assume 20%. That leaves $3,840. </p>

<p>To do this, the kid will have no break after a long school session. He/she has to stay home to avoid other living expenses. He/she may have to have a car to get to the job, so expenses such as gas, insurance, etc. Bottom line - not easy.</p>

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<p>DadII:</p>

<p>I do not think that your D will have to pay that much tax since her total income will be $4,800 plus whatever she receives in stipend.</p>

<p>Depending on the school, she may be able to get a summer job that will also allow her to live rent-free in a dorm. Colleges seem to pay $10/hr for work-study students, but many earn more.</p>

<p>As for no vacation, my S is expected to begin work almost as soon as exams are over. His internship is supposed to last 12 weeks; he will have a huge commute and not much vacation at the end of the internship. But he is very happy to have gotten it and expects to learn a lot from it.</p>

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<p>Dad II, are you changing the rules in the middle of the game? Did you tell your d up front that her choice would depend on the financial aid, or did you tell her "we'll pay for where you get in"? If you were up front, then have that discussion with your d. If you weren't, and are now using the money card to get her to go where you want her to go, stop now. If she doesn't feel any resentment towards you given the ways you've treated her so far, she will if you force your choices on her. (I went to the school my parents wanted me to go to, partially due to prestige, and not the one that I wanted. I got an excellent education, but the school was not a "fit"; to this day, I wonder what my life would have looked like had I been able to make my own choices.)</p>

<p>Think about it this way: if the financial aid were reversed, and School A had given her more money, would you let go of the idea of School B? Or is the money an excuse?</p>

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<p>Maybe it's because I've had a bad day so far, and I'm sorry, but Dad II, I'm tempted to tell you to grow up already!</p>

<p>NO ONE cares about the stupid bumper sticker except YOU. Really.</p>

<p>You've had your opportunity. Now let your daughter have hers. Stop undermining her, stop second-guessing her, stop telling her by all your actions that you think she is incapable of doing what needs to be done for her to go to the school SHE wants to go to.</p>

<p>Just because you haven't grown up yet doesn't mean she should lose her opportunity to do so.</p>

<p>She's grown. You either made the deal with her -- to put her through any school she got accepted to -- or you didn't. Since you did, suck it up, do what's right, let her go where she wants to go, and stop carping about the cost.</p>

<p>Yeah, you love your daughter more than you love your wallet, but do you love her more than your wallet and a stupid bumper sticker? Sure doesn't look like it to me. Just imagine how it must look to her.</p>

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<p>owlice,</p>

<p>I agree with you. I think if it were reversed (higher ranked first choice school was more $$), DadII would have no problem with the cost difference. I really don't think it's about the money for him, it's about the prestige. I agree to let the daughter decide after giving both schools a fair chance. She's the one who has the history of making mature decisions and knowing what's right for her.</p>

<p>He could always get a bumper sticker that says: "My daughter turned down..." ;)</p>

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<p>well, I did not change the rule and you guys are again making assumptions. </p>

<p>School A will cost more than our estimated EFC. We actually had a "how much we could afford" for school A talk way before this started. DD knows the # and the gap between aid and our # is huge.</p>

<p>Believe it or not, the "bumper sticker" statement was a joke. Our main concern is the academic strength at school A outside this particular program. What if professor leaves? What if DD changes her mind and wants to study something else? </p>

<p>Had DD gotten a better deal from A than current one and it is within our estimated EFC, I don't think we will have this discussion here. Even as today, I am letting DD making this decision. I am just picking the brain power on the forum so we could consider all the factors. </p>

<p>Please do not assume negatively.</p>

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<p>Dad II--if school A is Wash U. at St. Louis, I don't think that you have to worry about its overall academic strength. It's a great school with many many fine departments and it's also very well-known.</p>

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<p>I think people are being way too hard on Dad II here. Apart from CC social conventions, his position is perfectly rational: Setting up a reasonably high standard of justification for his daughter to decide to turn down one of the greatest educational institutions in the history of Western civilization -- yes, that's what it is -- for a more expensive option that's based on one small program. He hasn't said "no". He's trying to figure it out.</p>

<p>Sure, some students would make that choice. Mathmom's son did (don't know about the economic aspects). But that was a fairly unusual situation -- given Harvard's yield, and the percentage of students who turn it down for colleges of equivalent prestige, he made a very uncommon choice, and it was based on a clear, longstanding interest of his and an alternative college that was clearly superior to Harvard academically in that field. I have a counter-example: One of my numerous cousins (a step-cousin, actually) chose Northwestern over Harvard because she thought it was a better place to learn documentary filmmaking and broadcast journalism. Within a couple years, her interests had shifted. She did very well at Northwestern, and did not like it much; as a senior there, she told my kids in no uncertain terms that they shouldn't apply to it.</p>

<p>Sixty years ago (almost exactly), my mother chose Mills over Radcliffe, and she never regretted it. But that was at least in part an economic decision -- a full ride vs. what must have been hundreds of dollars of tuition and living expenses. Also, it was clear, to her and to everyone else, that she was rebelling against her mother and grandfather (who were more than happy to pay for Radcliffe). That was fine -- and she understood that she couldn't ask them to pay a penny to fund her rebellion (and she never did).</p>

<p>Here on CC, the chorus is sometimes deafening telling kids to go to their state university's honors program rather than a high-prestige private university to avoid $40,000 in debt. Why is it out-of-bounds for Dad II to wonder whether HE should incur at least that much debt for a college that is not clearly educationally superior to the cheaper alternative? Maybe he didn't make those ground rules clear to his daughter in advance -- they aren't so damn clear now, either -- but I think we can all agree that Dad II was not in a position to think that precisely six months ago, and that neither he nor his daughter anticipated this particular question.</p>

<p>"Prestige" alone is an empty thing. But in this case (and many others), "prestige" is perfectly good shorthand for the depth and breadth of educational and social opportunities offered by an institution. If it were my child, I would certainly not ORDER her to choose the cheaper, higher-prestige option, but I would be very active in making certain that, if she made a different choice, she was making it for very strong reasons. And I would be very skeptical about the value of a 15-person program.</p>