Different way of asking which school question

Parents Forum
41

<p>Could it be that Stanford sounds a bit intimidating to your D? Could it be that she is worried that she will not "measure up" there?</p>

<p>I am not sure that the schools your D is considering are different enough to justify the difference in cost. It is not a choice between top LAC and top university, where the issue of "fit" comes into play. Her two schools are very similar in many ways. </p>

<p>Not having to work for money during the summer can open up opportunities for research, internships, etc.</p>

<p>On the other hand, if she truly prefers school A after all, you can try to contact their fin aid office, and ask if they could match the other offer...</p>

<p>Edit: I completely agree with the wise and sound (as usual) advice from JHS...</p>

42

<p>Dad II, I didn't assume anything about the discussion; that's why I asked the question. If you've had these discussions with your d all along, then I have no problem with the discussion you're having now.</p>

<p>However, I don't think that School A is limited only to that 15 person program. Yes, she may change her mind, but School A (if it is WUStL) is strong enough in a sufficient number of academic areas that she will have the flexibility to change her mind.</p>

<p>Don't forget, if she is more comfortable at School A, she will do better there, regardless of the academics at School B.</p>

43

<p>And to echo JHS- not just the value of the 15 person program, but the value to his daughter should her academic interests change as most college kids do. Most HS kids don't know what linguistics is, or urban planning, or semiotics, or econometrics. They've never taken a philosophy class or measured the heads of chimpanzees in an anthro lab. So most HS kids decide they're going to study something they already know they like- history, math, chem, music performance.</p>

<p>They get to college and for many, that goes out the window. Even the best HS can't compete with the worst funded university in terms of the breadth and depth of offerings. So "fit" might be a very very good reason for Dad's d to attend the more expensive U, but commitment to an academic discipline might not be a very good reason-- all depends.</p>

<p>I've written before about the pre-med we know who ended up majoring in ethno-musicology. Who even knew such a thing existed back when she was taking chem and bio and thought she wanted to be a doctor 'cause that's what the smart girls in her HS wanted to be? (The dumb ones wanted their own show on VH-1, for sure a topic of study for an ethno-musicologist in decades to come!)</p>

44

<p>I also think that, in this case, the collective wisdom of CC is showing a few cracks. </p>

<p>For starters, assumptions are made not only about DadII's position but also about the wisdom of his daughter. Telling DadII that his daughter has made great decisions so far and that he should honor her wishes without questioning or extra guidance is simply ... baseless. </p>

<p>While DadII has not named the schools that appear to be in the final race, we can leave it at that from his selection of "5 top twenty schools" there IS a school that combines greater prestige and overall better academics. In this case, it is also the cheaper alternative. In addition, several of the schools listed by DadII in other posts have a history of deteriorating financial aid in the post freshman years. Accordingly, regarding the value of the small program, the small pond, AND the financial aid lingering questions, I'd say CAVEAT EMPTOR. </p>

<p>AT the end of the day, despite the wooing and the promise of a small program led by a known professor, the reality is that school A DID NOT make it financially attractive. Except at the Ivy League school that is listed by DadII, this means that merit scholarships were not exactly part of the wooing. This would make me think twice about the overall value of the proposal. Flattering one's ego but punishing one financially is not a recipe for success. </p>

<p>Since the financial angle has always been important (and very clear) for DadII, making a more expensive choice becomes the responsibility of the daughter. This leads to repeat that it would be up to the daughter to be responsible for the difference at the most expensive and less prestigious school. </p>

<p>Indeed, DadII is absolutely right on this one. Never thought I would say that!</p>

45

<p>DadIIs D will be visiting School B in 2 weeks, if I recall previous posts correctly. This will give her lots more information and will help enormously with the choice. I am very glad that we weren't faced with similar circumstances. School B, my son's first choice school and where he will attend, turned out to be the cheapest of all of his acceptances, although the part we owe will clean us out of college funds by the end of 4 years. Taking on debt is a big deal for middle class families. I think Dad II is right to thoroughly explore all combinations/permutations.</p>

46

<p>Sorry, I still think the prestige is what Dad II is after; he's made a lot of comments about prestige in this thread and others. </p>

<p>Just on this thread: </p>

<p>
[quote]
DD got in 5 top 20 universities.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
One hand is a better name and lower cost.<a href="Emphasis%20mine.">/quote</a></p>

<p>
[quote]
We love school B (can you say show off bumper stickers?)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
It is difficult to pay more for a lower ranked school from our point of view.<a href="Emphasis%20mine.">/quote</a></p>

<p>And I'm sorry, what this is isn't a problem, but a choice, a choice between two, in Dad II's words, "top 20 universities."</p>

<p>If he cannot afford school A, that's one thing. But he hasn't said he can't afford it, only that he doesn't want to pay more for a less prestigious (lower ranked) school.</p>

<p>I'm very price sensitive -- given my budget, I have to be -- so I'm very sympathetic to those who can't afford to consider certain schools. (I'll be joining all those in that category when S gets into the whole college apps thing.) But I'm also very sensitive to the "what will the neighbors say?!?!" mindset that some parents have, and that's the vibe I'm picking up here.</p>

<p>I could certainly be wrong, of course.</p>

<p>I think Xiggi makes an excellent points about financial aid (if School A loooooves her, why isn't it showing her with more aid?) and of course one should look at the history of both schools re: financial aid past the freshman year. </p>

<p>I just don't see that the financial aspect is really the driving force here. I suspect that if Dad II perceived School A as being as prestigious as School B, the deposit check would have already been written. I hope I'm wrong about that.</p>

47

<p>I wish I could write like JHS and xiggi. </p>

<p>Thank you to all. I really just want to hear all side of the arguement. </p>

<p>what about FA past the freshman year? That is something I have not heard. Shouldn't we expect the same in all four years? </p>

<p>One of my colleagues graduated from school B. He told me that he had several classes which were taught by the best professors in the world. Also, he commented that our EFC now is at or lower than what he paid for some 20 years ago.</p>

48

<p>It now reads as if you are leaning toward Stanford with its higher financial aid package. Duke, Cornell, WashUStL & Vanderbilt are all great schools, but if Stanford offers the best financial aid and offers majors in her intended course of study, then Stanford appears to be a great & safe choice. However, if the special program limited to 15 students is a six year guaranteed admission to medical school, then all bets are off as that is an incredibly valuable stress reducer for pre-meds while eliminating a year of undergraduate study. The OP offered too little info. to enable well reasoned responses in my opinion. (Reads as if School A is Vanderbilt with its guaranteed admission to medical or law school. If so, then there are lifestyle issues as well.) (I don't understand the logic contained in post #49 below. Could the poster restate his/her intention in clearer language? Sorry, but I just don't get the issue. Still on my first cup of coffee.)</p>

49

<p>Originally posted by JHS (and worth repeating):

[quote]
Here on CC, the chorus is sometimes deafening telling kids to go to their state university's honors program rather than a high-prestige private university to avoid $40,000 in debt. Why is it out-of-bounds for Dad II to wonder whether HE should incur at least that much debt for a college that is not clearly educationally superior to the cheaper alternative?

[/quote]
</p>

50

<p>"Why is it out-of-bounds for Dad II to wonder whether HE should incur at least that much debt for a college that is not clearly educationally superior to the cheaper alternative?"</p>

<p>Because in past posts he has indicated that he told his D he would pay for her education regardless of financial aid.</p>

51

<p>Would School A be willing to better their offer? That's a question that should be asked. I agree basing everything only on a 15-student program is probably not a good idea. But we are talking about two excellent schools here, at least I think we are. :) My views are also somewhat colored by the fact that I also have an irrational dislike of School B, though if my son had gotten in I would have seriously encouraged my son to consider it, since it's also very strong for his interests. </p>

<p>At any rate, I'm rooting for DadII's daughter to fall in love with the less expensive choice! Problem solved. :)</p>

52

<p>dntw8up,</p>

<p>I don't think that's true, but even if it was, sometimes under emotional stress statements are maid that prove to be unwarranted when examined more closely.</p>

<p>It's not like he promised her the world, and now is telling her that he can only afford the community college.</p>

53

<p>Dntw8up, DadII has often explored the various possibilities (especially financial) while making statements that appeared very strong-headed ... a bit like thinking outloud. One of his biggest issues related to the value of paying for an education at Harvard versus paying less or nothing at the local college. </p>

<p>We should recognize that several of his original assumptions had to be revised because of the numerous financial aid initiatives at Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford, and others. For this reason, it does not really matter what he "thought" might happen. As many tried to share with DadII, the reality is that one can only decide with the financial aid documents in hand. Today, his circumstances are well defined and no longer part of "what-if" games. </p>

<p>By weighing the cost of the entire education, DadII and his daughter are doing the right thing. And, while it's entirely feasible that the more expensive school turns out to be the best overall alternative, looking at a difference that will run upwards of $60,000 or $80,000 is hardly a discussion about a bumper sticker on the back of the Mercedes 560SL. </p>

<p>For what it is worth, we could have a similar discussion with the financial aid reversed at School A and B. Would DadII be willing to pay more for an education at Stanford versus St Louis' WashU? On a personal note, I think that it would still be a hard choice, and one more in line with DadII envisioned 18 months, except for the fact that the choice among HYPS is now Stanford and not Harvard. </p>

<p>Months ago, I wondered why DadII's daughter did not prepare a non-binding SCEA at Stanford. I happen to think that most of his torture would have ended in January 2008!</p>

54

<p>Dad I, I suggest you contact the financial aid office of school A and let them know your D would really like to go there because of the special opportunities of the program she was admitted to, but you received a better offer from another school, and could they review there offer of financial aid.</p>

55

<p>
[quote]
If it were my child, I would certainly not ORDER her to choose the cheaper, higher-prestige option, but I would be very active in making certain that, if she made a different choice, she was making it for very strong reasons.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I completely agree with JHS on this point. She knows school A, and now it seems responsible to learn as much as she can about school B to make an informed decision. I would re-frame this question in terms of not which school is better and at what cost, but what life skills are important in helping your daughter navigate the decision making process. </p>

<p>While we felt it was important for our S to make his own decision, we did ask that he explore his options thoroughly to settle any doubt in his own mind. As a family, we talked about how we gather information and proceed with difficult decisions. We had a conversation along the lines of, “When we are unsure of our choices, we ask for help. We talk to people with firsthand knowledge and ask for more information.” The admissions landscape looks very different once you are an accepted student. I would put my energy on helping my child use the admissions resources available to her. </p>

<p>With that in mind, your daughter should call her admissions officer at school B and have a forthright conversation. She should explain that she is trying to make her final decision and would like to speak to people to gather more information in advance of her visit. Stanford is very accessible on this point. She will find department professors willing to talk to her about her opportunities, and she will also find students willing to speak with her about their experiences. </p>

<p>I suggest the admissions officer as the first point of contact because they are now invested in you and are very knowledgeable about helpful contacts beyond a single department. They might have some surprising suggestions. They are interested in you having a good experience and would like you to select their school. With advance research and conversations, your daughter can really personalize and optimize her visit. She is now doing the selecting. She just needs to ask for help. </p>

<p>Good luck, and congratulations to your daughter and your family.</p>

56

<p>
[quote]
My views are also somewhat colored by the fact that I also have an irrational dislike of School B

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</p>

<p>I think that we all do, perhaps in various degrees. All of us base most of on our opinions on subjective accounts of others. Sometimes all it takes to form an "irrational" dislike is knowing Student X or Student Y who decided to attend a particular school. The fact that there are 10,000 other students at the same school might become less important than knowing someone who happen to believe that school was ... perfect for him! </p>

<p>That is why decisions can only be made by the interested parties. An example of divergent opinions is the Stanford versus Harvard thread of cgarrett. While the camps are clearly defined, I doubt that anyone is wrong or right. </p>

<p>This said, issues of financial aid hardly fall in the realm of opinions. Some schools are known to be as generous as "straight" in their dealings with families; others ... not so much. Some schools make extreme efforts to publish ALL their policies, including the pesky details of minimum student contributions and use of outside scholarships; others ... not so much. </p>

<p>Since DadII asked the question about changes in post-freshman financial aid, the consensus would be that the aid rarely gets better. However, that theory has been completely debunked by the recent changes at the most selective schools. In the meantime, one can check a few facts. For instance, hoping for an improved aid package at the UC system ought nothing but wishful thinking as further erosions are as predictable as they have been. On the other hand, schools with HUGE endowments will continue to face public inquiries about the ratio of spending versus accumulation. And, last but not least, the direction of balancing merit and need based aid at various schools is also quite ... predictable. In some cases, the term bait and switch might even come up! </p>

<p>In this case, DadII WILL find all the answers he needs regarding the dollars and cents; his daughter will let her heart take care of the common sense.</p>

57

<p>I Have to agree with owlice on this one--I also think that name recognition is the main factor for DADII. He once talked about the fact that his brother called him and bragged that his niece had received a scholarship to Stanford, and that this had made him feel very sad about his own daughters chances, and now that the same has happened to him--I suspect that there is a bit of sibling rivelry. While most people on this board are very aware of the excellence of WashUStL. it remains one of those schools that many people are not familiar with, esp. outside of the midwest. The comment about having a bumpersticker saying "My daughter turned down..." was on target--I think that he would love to be able to tell people where she was attending and have them pat him on the back. Maybe there is nothing wrong with this--people have their own reasons for what is important and maybe they just have to admit to them--no matter how irrational or frivolous they might seem to others. Yes, money is a factor that always should be considered, but in this case, I think its the name recognition that is causing the problem.</p>

58

<p>It's one thing to criticize DadII for prestige hunting, but it is another think to claim that he SHOULD let his 17 y.o. daughter to take WUSTL over Stanford and pay EXTRA 60K for it without any objections.</p>

<p>I like WUSTL - my own child is heading there in the fall. But I would have a hard time justifying an extra 60K for WUSTL over Stanford (or vice versa, for that matter...) There would have to be a very good reason for that choice.</p>

<p>And I am not sure that 17 y.o. who never had to support themselves financially can really understand the value of the debt.</p>

59

<p>I don't usually respond to posts like this, but I do feel that Dad II has a right to be concerned. I think that if his daughter applied to both schools she obviously wanted to attend both. If one is significantly less strain on finances and equal to or better than the other, she should at least take that STRONGLY into consideration.
Sure - she may like one better than the other, but I like a Jaguar better than a Toyota. Doesn't mean a Toyota isn't a great choice for me and I can afford to put gas in it. It may be a dumb analogy, but it sure seems like everybody wants what they want and they don't always measure the consequences and trade-offs. I'm not sure I would be willing to let an 18 year old make that financial decision when the enormity of that amount of money is probably not real to her in a meaningful way.</p>

<p>edit :Wow - the post right before mine seems to be saying the same thing LOL</p>

60

<p>Perhaps it would be best to let the student decide provided that she take out loans in her name to cover the cost difference between Stanford and WUStL/Vanderbilt.(Has the second school been revealed by the OP? And, if so, what is the program? The OP has left out crucial info. when seeking advice on such an important life changing topic. If it is a guaranteed admission program to either WUStL's or Vanderbilt's medical school, then advice could change drastically. The substantial omissions by the OP prompt concern that the daughter may be more astute about this matter than the parent.)</p>