I know you are joking (sorta, maybe?) but that’s what bothers me about the original agreement. What is this arrangement teaching the D? That money can be had by forfeiting your personal and spiritual free will. That it is fine and good to agree to something that doesn’t “feel right” for financial gain.</p>
<p>And Atamom, you are speculating that the D is just a lazy Catholic. None of us know whether that is the case or if, in her heart, she doesn’t feel that the Catholic church is the right fit for her. Don’t underestimate her motives.</p>
<p>LF, I was really just looking for understanding about ato’s faith. Some have said it’s no big deal, some have said it’s a mortal sin.</p>
<p>Frankly, I don’t care if someone ties their money to religion. That’s fine. It just seems to A) go against what I learned in Catholic school/church, B) be a great way to drive people away from the church, and C) be a great way to ruin a relationship with a child. Again, I learned that Jesus told people to choose God over material possessions so I’m curious as to why a faithful would choose money over mass. Maybe to ato, mass isn’t that important. I know many Christians who think that. I was asking :)</p>
<p>What an apt analogy! Moreover, I’d think forcing someone to attend church services tends to betray a lack of faith in the righteousness of one’s religion. </p>
<p>Usually, resorting to coercion is only used to force someone else to perform a task that’s mostly considered highly distasteful, unpleasant, dangerous, or all of the above.</p>
<p>Most folks I know who are sincere in their religious faith view them as a positive force in their personal lives in such a way that they can’t help, but share it in ways a good friend or family member would want to share a new tasty dish or hobby. </p>
<p>There’s a phrase about attracting more flies with honey rather than vinegar.</p>
<p>Loneranger60; I admire your ability to read so many heated responses, and ones that disagreed with your original inclination, and to answer back calmly and respectfully…as well, to take their insights to heart, and to change your approach in this specific situation. I am sure that your daughter and son learn from this respectful, open-hearted approach to input and to differing viewpoints. This takes strength and equanimity and humility. Wishing you the best!</p>
<p>“I can’t help but notice that atomom and others who think it’s no big deal to be forced to sit through a Mass are deeply attached to their Faith ™ and are True Believers ™. They see nothing wrong with this requirement because they themselves follow that requirement. So naturally they can’t see why we object.”</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s a big deal, and I don’t think of myself as attached to my faith, nor a “true believer”. But perhaps I am stuck on the idea that I joined the military and went to war for even less money., and thought I was lucky to have that “opportunity”. Lots 17 year old’s do. I was 17 at the time I agreed to it, and couldnt “change my mind”, even years later. And I don’t think of my self as attached to, or a true believer of that either. But I sure did get with the program when I had to! And I didnt resent the military either. Sure am glad it ended up a “win win” for me.</p>
<p>I don’t think that’s an apt analogy. The US military has been a volunteer force since 1973. Unless I’m missing something here, you signed up for it knowing well what the military’s expectations and duties were…or at least was supposed to by reading the contract. </p>
<p>Don’t think that’s the same thing as coercing someone to potentially go against his/her personal conscience for the sake of tuition payments…especially when it is introduced as a change in contract terms after a year or two. </p>
<p>It violates the most basic part of a young adult’s personal autonomy and IMHO…goes against the spirit of what the US is all about. </p>
<p>Millions have died in recent history due to tyrannies arising from this sort of coercion or for the sake of fighting for the right to worship as their conscience sees fit. </p>
<p>In addition, it also implies that the religion of the one doing the coercing is so highly distasteful, unpleasant, dangerous, or all of the above that coercion is the only means of ensuring there are other followers/converts. Not exactly a positive testimony to invigorate the coerced faithful or win potential converts.</p>
<p>I really do give up CC for Lent every year. It IS a challenge, but I’ve been able to do it.</p>
<p>As a Catholic mom who hopes her own kids attend mass when they are in college, I think I do understand the OP. The mom is asking her D to “attend mass.” This is important to the mom because Sunday mass attendance is required by the Catholic church. (While the mom might hope that her D would “become more faithful,” that is not/can’t be part of her request.) </p>
<p>Mass attendance is different from some other types of worship. It is possible to attend mass and quietly not participate. You don’t have to pretend to believe anything. Don’t bless yourself, don’t say the creed, don’t kneel, don’t sing, don’t go to communion. No one will ask you any questions. You are still welcome to coffee and doughnuts. I don’t see mass attendance as a violation of conscience for a non-believer.</p>
<p>The OP has never said that her D rejected the Catholic church or professed another faith/no faith. Perhaps she can clarify. I have assumed it is very likely that her D, like many college students, is just lazy about mass attendance (as I and many Catholic friends were at that age). If that is the case, it would not be like forcing a vegan to eat meat. (True, I could be underestimating her motives, but imo, many other posters are over-estimating the religious conflict due to their own bad experiences with religion.)</p>
<p>Obviously the mom isn’t really paying the D $500/hr to attend mass. But if the D would picture it that way, she might see that her mom is making a very small request (which D agreed to but failed to keep her agreement) in exchange for a huge payout: tuition/room/board. The D not only gets $500/hr toward college–she buys her mom’s happiness and peace of mind every week–just by attending mass. Priceless.</p>
<p>Most relationships involve some sort of exchange of goods/services. Whether you call that “love” or “coercion” depends on the situation. I think the mom shows she loves her D by paying for her college and being concerned about her spiritual welfare. (btw, she hasn’t “forced” her D to attend mass. She asked her to attend mass. And her D agreed, but didn’t go.) So how has the D shown she loves her mother? By taking mom’s $ and breaking her promise?</p>
<p>Have you ever been to Mass? The girl has never renounced her Catholicism and comparing asking her to go to Mass with making a vegan eat meat is absurd.</p>
<p>The girl had a full scholarship at a different school. Her parents said you can go to the other school, with us paying $25,000 a year if you go to Mass. She chose that option but then didn’t go to Mass once there. People keep saying “if you force her to go to mass she’ll hate you and Catholicism”. To actually leave the church and drop your parents from your life requires much deeper seeded feelings of resentment than come from sitting through Mass, especially when you’re Catholic and agreed to attend Mass before attending the college. I get the feeling a lot of people have never been to Mass. You can just sit there and listen, no participation required. The student, an adult as all keep pointing out, agreed to go to Mass just to get the money for school, that’s a fact. That was their deal she didn’t keep.</p>
<p>The op and family can decide whatever they want, but I find it interesting they changed their mind in the midst of being berated and put down, by some in a not very friendly manner.</p>
<p>Actually, redeye, the OP was looking for feedback and got it. She and her D were able to have a good conversation, and come to an agreement. Her comments seem appreciative:</p>
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<p>Sorry that you see this as a bad outcome. I don’t think that the OP does.</p>
<p>BTW, I know exactly what she means. Several years back, I was having a conflict with my D and asked the opinion of the CC parents. They almost unanimously disagreed with me, some in strong terms, but I didn’t feel that I was being “berated and put down.” On the contrary, they forced me to reexamine my position and I was quite grateful for that, because they (and my D) were right.</p>
<p>OP I am glad you have resolved this with your daughter.</p>
<p>I can understand your issue with her agreeing to something and then not honoring that agreement-whatever it was about. </p>
<p>My son is a college sophomore. I have had some discussion with him about this subject. I would love him to go to Mass weekly and be involved-he has gone many times and seems to like it-but I wouldn’t have even thought to attach financial conditions to his attendance. I think it is wonderful you could take all this feedback and realize you needed to amend your agreement.</p>
<p>We do attend Mass weekly here and all are expected to attend. If my child still at home-who thinks all of this is boring-came to me and said they didn’t want to go for any reason other than it’s boring or something along those lines-if she had serious issues about having to be there-I would listen and I would be open to her not attending. However, not going because she just doesn’t feel like it doesn’t cut it in this house. This notion that we are dragging our kids or coercing them to attend in spite of their well thought out objections may not be the case. We are members of a church that requires weekly attendance-so we meet the requirements. If they were too much for us to bear we would leave the church and find another one that didn’t have that requirement-what is so hard to understand about that? When they are adults they can make that choice-just like they can make all the other choices adults make. I had to attend Mass until I was 18 and then I too left for many years but came back-of all the things my parents did wrong I feel this was one of the things they did right as it helped build a foundation that was there when I needed it. Sometimes just showing up in life makes all the difference.</p>
<p>Everyone has their own experience and I would never think to tell them their feelings were wrong since I am in no position to judge anyone.</p>
<p>OP you mentioned your husband was very upset-is he OK with this decision? I also was wondering if you had talked to your son about him focusing on what he should be doing and letting his sister do the same. :)</p>
<p>That’s beside the point. Attending a church is participating in a sense and for someone who can’t be bothered for whatever reason should be their right once they’ve reached 18 as that is the legal age of majority in US society. </p>
<p>Would you feel differently if someone used coercion of a financial or any other sort to effectively force you to attend services at an Islamic mosque, a fundie Protestant church, a meeting of vehement atheists? </p>
<p>As an aside, I have actually attended Mass as a result of being asked nicely if I’d be willing to attend by childhood neighbors and from attending Catholic school with very kind teachers and nuns who were never coercive about it. While I never became Catholic, my memories were actually on the neutral-positive side. </p>
<p>I’ve also attended my fundie relatives’ Protestant services at their kind invitation while visiting as an older child. However, when I found it wasn’t suited to me partially because I encountered several coercive type jerks among their fellow churchgoers who’d feel at home not only persecuting non-protestants…but even fellow protestants with differing ideas if they had the chance and the power to do so…those relatives wisely chose to not push the point with me or anyone else who felt as I did. Granted, I grew up in an era('80s) when no one would feel it remiss if guardians left 8 year old kids home alone…especially in a nice safe suburb. </p>
<p>In short, I’m of the live and let live type who feels that unless someone is unprincipled or trivializing a religious faith…attendance at such events is so personal that the decision to attend should be by their own volition free from coercive pressures of any kind. </p>
<p>Not only is this respecting the free conscience of the individual concerned…it also doesn’t give off negative vibes about one’s religion that in my observation, tends to be a major factor in causing many folks to leave the faith they were brought up in.</p>
<p>I have friends who go to a Spanish mass. They don’t speak Spanish. They like the music. My brother in law looks for the shortest mass possible. One with no music, no falderal, few children, he wants in and out. We avoided masses with certain singers and mucisians as they extended the mass by half hour of elevator music. My daughter managed to not go to any Friday morning school masses all four years of highschool, though they were supposed to reflect on it in short notes. There are priests that are great and others who made us cringe. There are volunteers who are amazing and others that were bossy, controlling…</p>
<p>It was a deal the parents never should have insisted on, and perhaps the daughter made the agreement in good faith. Once she got there, it could have been, um no…a contract made under duress is not a valid contract</p>