<p>Loneranger60:
My husband and I are Catholic, as are our 2 adult children. We come from a long line of Catholics on both sides of our respective families. I attended parochial school for 7 years and was often forced to attend Mass as a young adult, which I often resented. </p>
<p>My children have been shown the way and now have to decide for themselves whether to follow us in our faith. It means so much more to me when they attend Mass of their own choosing, not because they are forced by guilt, parental pressure, or fear of mortal sin. </p>
<p>It may make you, the parent, feel that you are saving her from a fall from grace, but what you ultimately may end up doing is alienating her from the Church … forever.</p>
<p>Wow, just wow. It’s her sin not yours. And if you make her go to mass, that’s kind of against what the catholic church I grew up in would teach. It’s meaningless if the heart is not in it, so even if she sits in the building, what’s the point? </p>
<p>If this was my mom, I might say sure, I’ll go to mass and then I might sit in the back and not listen, or make lists, or study. </p>
<p>Feels like she is spitting on us.
Serious sin.
It’s one of the complexities of the Catholic church, traditionally, that you are supposed to go regularly. Or else.</p>
<p>You may have to trust the work you did to instill the Catholic faith in her from early childhood. Many modern Catholics love the best and most personally meaningful aspects of that religion and make their peace with the “or else” parts. Many believe in a loving God who forgives and understands. Rather than trying to sell her on mass or avoiding eternal damnation (which doesn’t make much sense to many college kids,) why not just check out, in some nice comfy conversation (that does not feel staged, nervous or accusatory,) whether she intends to marry in the church, raise her kids in the faith, etc. Ie, try to bond over it, rather than hold the proverbial “or else” axe over her head? I know this is hard for many, while kids are in college. But, many families hope their kids will continue the family faith on a long term, emotionally satisfying basis- which is sometimes stronger and more important than just “going through the motions.”</p>
<p>She is making very clear her feelings about the church at this point. That may change in the future, or it may not. But being guilted in going to mass will not – WILL NOT – make her suddenly accept your religious choice for her. I’m sorry, but refusing to face the facts doesn’t make them go away.</p>
<p>Trying to force her to buy into a faith that obviously means a lot to you – but obviously doesn’t mean much to her – will not accomplish what you want. And it’s hurting your relationship with your D. You’d be far better off telling her that you respect her as an adult, including her ability to make her own choices about this DEEPLY PERSONAL matter.</p>
<p>Please re-read the posts from those of us who were coerced into going to church when we were young.</p>
<p>So her first school you didn’t contribute financially to her college and you treated her as an independent adult.</p>
<p>Now that she is attending a school that requires a parental contribution, you have the stipulation that you can dictate how she spend at least part of her time.</p>
<p>However, I am unclear why you felt she made good choices regarding her time at her other school, but you do not now that you have someone who is reporting back to you on her activities.</p>
<p>Do you really want an adult child who will do things, not because she thinks it’s right or because she wants to, but for money?</p>
<p>OP–I am a conservative Catholic and am probably one of the few on here who can understand where you are coming from. A lot of the posts sound very hostile to me, and most of that stems from the posters’ OWN negative experience with their parents and childhood churches.
What surprises me is that little mention is made of your D’s transfer from a full-ride school to another college where you are paying $25K (and are you paying as much for her brother, too?)
I would never let my kid transfer from a full-ride due to “not really liking the college, not feeling particularly happy there.” Or any other minor problems. I’m not sure what your D’s issues were with the full-ride school, but only if some terrible tragedy made her physically, psychologically unable to stay at that school-- or if she changed to a major that the full-ride school didn’t have–would I pay THAT much for a kid to transfer. I’d tell him/her to tough it out and come home with the degree. I can see how you feel that you’ve taken on a large and unnecessary expense for your D’s “happiness,” and feel it is reasonable to ask that she do this one small thing in return–for your “happiness/peace of mind.” That said, you can’t make your D go to mass (unless you go to the college every Sunday and take her there yourself). I understand that your S is not a spy or a tattle-tale. But it is possible that he could ask her to to to mass with him.
I went to a large public university where my sister also attended. After going to mass every Sunday and Holy Day my entire childhood (and against my will as a teenager-- my sisters and I were mostly scanning the congregation for cute guys. . .and we had some really stupid/hippie guitar masses back then. . .), I went to mass with my sister the first week of college and decided it was too far to walk (and not enough cute guys were there)–and never returned while I was on campus. However, my 6 siblings (most of whom went to public colleges and had sporadic mass attendance) and I NEVER would dream of arguing with my parents or acting reluctant to go to mass, or starting theological debates when we were home for the holidays. (I understand that different families have different ideas about honoring father and mother) For us it was a matter of respect for our parents. So this is where I agree with the OP–and disagree with other posters–that religious practice can be done for other reasons than a “deep personal faith.” In this case, I feel that it is disrespectful, rude, and selfish of the D to promise her mother to attend mass, and then --not considering her parent’s feelings–ignore that promise. If this happened to me I also would feel like my kid spit in my face. Your request was reasonable. But you probably don’t want to cut off tuition, so you can’t follow through on your threat. You don’t owe your D an apology–she owes you one. And you’ll probably never get it. I feel that your D has taken advantage of you. And there is little you can do about it.
If you’ve already let her know how you feel about her breaking this promise, then I would let it go. (Perhaps her brother will go with her some time? Depending on her location she might like to explore different rites of the mass–Latin, Maronite, Byzantine, etc.) I have tried all of these. I go the Latin mass now and it is a very different style. H sings in the Gregorian choir and the music is the main attraction for us. Our oldest D prefers the English mass and attends at her (Catholic) college in another state. One of her brothers just started at a public u. not far from her. Before he left, I asked him, since he has no car, if he wanted to take the bus to the English mass with the other students, or if he wanted me to find him a ride to the Latin mass. (At this point I was holding my breath because there was the possibility that he’d say “none of the above–I have no intention of attending mass.”) He told me he prefers the Latin mass, and I was very happy to arrange a ride for him. The second week he was there, he told me that he saw his SISTER at the Latin mass. She never liked the veils, long skirts, and ultra-conservative sermons…I was touched to hear this because I knew she went there not for the mass, but to see her brother.</p>
<p>I am not Catholic, and I do not believe in forcing young adults into religious observance. That said, I do believe in holding young adults accountable to their promises and commitments. So I think there is a lot of “wrong” to go around here. M&D should not have made religious observance a condition of tuition, but D is wrong to not follow through on her promise to her parents.</p>
<p>Instead of a letter I would sit down with D and ask her 1- why she agreed to the condition in the first place and 2- why she has not followed through. Tell her how it makes you feel. Then I would back off on the demand. If you want her to at least try going to Mass in a college community then make that request. Ask that she go some small number of times – no more than 3 – and tell you about it herself. If she decides not to attend after that – that is her choice and you have to respect it.</p>
<p>The only way we can influence our adult children on anything is to be able to have open and adult conversations.</p>
<p>The key words in your post are WE and I. Attaching financial support to a religious requirement because YOU believe she will be a sinner if she doesn’t go is just bazaar to me. If she goes because of money…that’s not a sin to you? Paying your daughter to attend church isn’t sinful to you?</p>
<p>If God would prefer a parent bribe someone to go to Church rather than of their own free will, that’s not a God I’d ever want to worship and would hope my children wouldn’t either. Whether you mean to or not, you are telling your D that church is more important than your relationship with her.</p>
<p>OP: I totally get your concern. She’s not living up to her end of the bargain, and you are concerned that you are subsidizing her while she is committing what you see as a sin – not attending Mass.</p>
<p>As a committed Christian (moderate to liberal Protestant) myself, I understand your concerns. I even consider certain behaviors sinful that you probably would not agree with me on (i.e. drinking alcohol). Other parents would see premarital sex as sinful. Some “sins” are illegal (underage drinking), and some are physically dangerous (drinking and driving; having promiscuous, unprotected sex). As a parent, I would not subsidize a child who was breaking the law or recklessly putting him/herself or others at risk of serious injury or death. However, if my over-21 child chose to drink alcohol in moderation and not before driving, I would not withdraw college funding merely because I thought that drinking was wrong, nor would I criticize him/her for it. Do you see the difference? Not going to Mass is neither physically dangerous or illegal. You may see it as risking her mortal soul, but if she is there under compulsion, isn’t that just as bad as not going?</p>
<p>You have the right to insist on her following her end of the bargain, and you have the right to tell her that if she sins you will cut the money off. HOWEVER, I am in complete agreement with almost all of the posters above that you are at serious risk of alienating your daughter by doing so. Tell her how much your religion means to you, that it has been hard for you to see that she has drifted away from the church but that she’s at the age where she can make her own decisions about religion. Tell her that you were wrong to make Mass attendance a requirement and that you love her and support her – then show her that love and support whatever she chooses.</p>
<p>Now here’s a suggestion that might help you feel better. Contact the Catholic chaplain at her university. Tell him (I assume they’re all “hims”) what’s going on and how you feel. I’m sure that university chaplains have heard this hundreds of times before. Perhaps he can give you some insight based on his experience of seeing students drift away from (and in some cases, back into) the Catholic church. Maybe he will suggest some other, non-Mass, Catholic activities on campus that she could participate in. You could let her know about those, then drop the subject.</p>
<p>Maybe she will make the Catholic church a part of her life again. Maybe she will connect with another Christian church or another faith. Maybe she will not. No matter what she does, surely as a parent you want to keep connected to her.</p>
<p>You can’t force religion on someone. But I understand that you feel your D is also missing out on the community aspects of church also. I would say that to her–I would hope you would go not only for the spiritual side of life but also the community. I think you’re missing out. After that’s said–that’s all, say no more. And tell brother to quit.</p>
<p>This discussion reminds me of a thread a few years ago about a mother considering withdrawing her college financial support because her daughter had gone back on her agreement not to get a tattoo, something the mom deplored.</p>
<p>I was surprised then to see how many people were sympathetic to the mom’s side because her daughter hadn’t lived up to her part of the bargain. My feelings then and now are that it is foolhardy and manipulative to attach non-academic conditions on college funding for an adult child. Besides the obvious point that everyone has been making–that it usually backfires–it also teaches kids the wrong message about the power of money and external reward. Real values are fostered intrinsically and count on kids who have been bribed through life to try those same learned techniques on others. Whether it be getting a tattoo, going to church or joining a free-love society, these are personal choices that college kids have the right to make on their own. Obviously, it is quite a different matter to tie academic performance to continued funding as the value of the investment is in question.</p>
<p>In this case, as in the other, the parents made a mistake, both practically and morally, by trying to impose their preferences on their children. OP should talk to her daughter and withdraw the condition, explain why church is so important in her own life and try to influence her daughter’s choices without dictating requirements.</p>
<p>Leaving aside the issue that attempting to BUY someone’s conscience is abhorrent, presumably, she did not transfer without your permission. If you were unwilling or unable to afford the cost of her attendance at this school, you would have said so then.</p>
<p>Or did you secretly think “She’s too independent now, we have nothing to hold over her head. If she transfers to S’s school, he can keep an eye on her and we will have more control over her because we will hold the purse strings!” At this point, it sounds like it, I’m sorry to say.</p>
<p>There are many discussions on CC about parents exerting control by withdrawing financing. The reasons are many: grades, groups affiliations, communication frequency, majors…you name it. When our S went to college, we were able to offer him almost no financial support. His college gave him close to a full ride. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen people here saying they would cut off funds if their S didn’t do this or that. We, on the other hand, had no financial hold over him. If he chose to call or come home, it was completely because he chose to do so. That was the position that you were in when she was at the other school. It sounds like you found it frightening. I don’t blame you, actually.</p>
<p>But attempting to reassert control in this manner is very, very unwise. You are obviously comfortable with an authoritarian religious structure, and an authoritarian family structure. I am comfortable with neither. But I reiterate: whether or not one considers it to be ethical or moral, what you are contemplating is very likely to have precisely the reverse effect of what you wish.</p>
Yes, Wildwood! That thread occurred to me as I read the first post. I agree that the parent in that thread had much more support for withholding tuition money than the OP. Perhaps because many posters here feel that an individual’s relationship with God, and a church, is simply too much at the core of an individual’s being for a parent to attempt to control. </p>
<p>loneranger, just to clarify why people have latched on to the idea that your son is “tattling”: in your first post you said “The reason we know she is not attending Mass is her brother is at the same school and calls home every Sunday to tell us that he has repeatedly invited his sister to attend Mass with him at one of the many services that are offered all weekend that are walking distance from her dorm and she refuses to go.” This is at odds with the casual communication with him you describe in subsequent posts.</p>
<p>The OP made an agreement with her daughter and the daughter is breaking it but the OP is at fault?</p>
<p>I see that as the big issue-the daughter could have stayed put and done whatever she wanted but she chose-assuming she wasn’t coerced-to enter into this agreement and she is not holding up her end of the bargain.</p>
<p>OP if she had refused your conditions would she have returned to the full ride school?</p>
<p>Yes, the daughter shares some responsibility in accepting the condition–but think of it from her point of view–she was obviously very unhappy at the other school and her first concern was finding a way out. The parents took advantage of this to impose their own values on her, dangling money to get their way. Would they really not have funded the switch if the daughter hadn’t agreed to go to church? If that’s true they should be doing some soul-searching as to what their priorities are.</p>
<p>OP: Do you know for a fact that your D is not attending any kind of service? I know you mentioned that her brother invited her to attend mass with him, but my exprience is that college campuses have many places of worship around them which is why am asking. Is it possible she may be interested in a different church? Would that be an acceptable substitue to mass?</p>
<p>Transferring from full-ride to $25k a year school: It seems very strange to me that you as a parent would be willing to do take on such a large financial burden when you didn’t have to. Is there more to this story? Your D didn’t transfer to Notre Dame by any chance? ;)</p>
<p>Your son managed to get you furious at his sister, didn’t he?</p>
<p>It’s easy to get oneself worked up into a fury. I suggest you visit your daughter first. Ask her about her life on campus, how she’s fitting in, whether she’s found friends, etc. Perhaps you could attend Mass with her. She could very well be attending a different Mass than her brother. Before you reach the “spitting on us” stage, you should ascertain if the accusations are true.</p>
<p>You must back down from self-righteous fury. At the extreme, you might do something you would bitterly regret. Do you want to see your grandchildren? Which would you rather have: a college graduate who was raised in the Catholic Faith, and will likely return to regular Mass attendance once she has children, or a former Catholic who has some college, who doesn’t speak with her parents? I know of families which have deep estrangements between parents and children, and it’s often over issues of control. </p>
<p>Your daughter is not a child. She is capable of declining your attempt to force her to attend Mass. She’s capable of cutting off contact entirely.</p>
<p>Please note post #66 from Atomom, who is a conservative Catholic and understands some of the issues that concern the original poster. However, Atomom herself did not attend Mass during college (too far to walk, too few “cute” guys, she said). It is not uncommon at all for young people to stop going to Mass at this age, but then many tend to return at some point, often once they have families, but sometimes before.</p>
<p>Caveat: I am a Protestant pastor whose one daughter never attended worship while in college, and the other is “best buds” with the campus priest, travelled with him through Italy and labored with him in Guatamala, and attends Mass twice a week (although she disagrees strongly with Catholic theology). Helped him found a religious living community on one floor of a dorm that now takes up two.</p>
<p>Is this the hill you want to die on? Do you want to prevent your daughter from obtaining an education and/or risk alienating her from her parents and her brother if she refuses to cooperate?</p>
<p>I realize that the Church teaches that Mass is an obligation and that she will go to hell if she doesn’t attend. That’s hard to take, I’m sure. But here’s where my Protestantism kicks in: You can’t save her; only the Holy Spirit can do that. You might be able to force her to ATTEND, but you can’t make her WORSHIP. You can’t make her love God.</p>
<p>Are you perhaps in part reacting so strongly because at some level you feel as though YOU have failed? I felt that way about kid #1. </p>
<p>Yes, she has violated a promise. But you backed her into a corner. She was miserable at the first school, and the only way out was to make that promise. </p>
<p>In hind sight, perhaps she should have been made to stay at school #1. But that can’t be changed. And she’s been at school for what, a month? She MAY find her way to Mass one of these days. Meanwhile, keep praying for her.</p>