Discussion of Changes at USNA

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
301

<p><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/21/AR2007082101731.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/21/AR2007082101731.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
The new superintendent of the U.S. Naval Academy, Vice Adm. Jeffrey L. Fowler, has imposed stricter rules for midshipmen, continuing the cycle of tightening and relaxing mandatory actions that has existed at the academy for decades ["Naval</a> Academy Sets Tough Wartime Rules," Metro, Aug. 18].</p>

<p>Unfortunately, both the crackdowns and the relaxations have nothing to do with the academy's mission to prepare midshipmen to be officers in the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps. Teaching midshipmen to be leaders can't be done by dictating exactly what they are supposed to be doing at every moment. Four years of boot camp can produce people taught to follow schedules, but it won't teach them to lead. It can convince them that posting strict rules is leadership, something that sailors and Marines will quickly find ingenious ways to rebel against....

[/quote]
</p>

302

<p>From the Letter posted by GA above:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Those supposed leadership positions open to midshipmen are effectively only ceremonial, with all real decisions made by the officers assigned to the academy. Midshipmen should be treated like junior officers and given real leadership responsibilities to occupy their time instead of increasing their mandatory formations and study periods.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And that's the rub...</p>

<p>Let's look at what Mids are expected to do as part of their daily duties. First and foremost (and like it or not), they are there to get a college education. That takes a LOT of time and effort on its own, especially when being put through a curriculum that isn't easy in the best of circumstances. Add to that those evolutions of a military nature, be they parades, formations, training lectures, summer training, etc., and you are already seriously taxing their time-management skills.</p>

<p>Mr. Hemry (the writer of the letter who, I regret, does not give his retired rank so I may address him correctly) brings up perfectly valid points that LEADERSHIP, if not taught at USNA, will need to be learned out in the Fleet which, by any real measure, can be considered too damned late. The problem is, we can't saddle the Mids with those responsibilities that Company and Battalion officers have AND expect them to perform the duties I've already listed at the same time.</p>

<p>A possible solution to this is to change the curricula so that 1/C Midshipmen CAN, in fact, assume many of the roles currently held by Company and Battalion Officers. Another option is to tack on an extra year to the duration of the USNA experience, with half the 1/C spending a semester at sea learning the real deal and the other half at USNA learning the administrative skills, and then switching for the 2nd Semester.</p>

<p>The jist of my point is, ECA's (even in "officer" positions) do not instill the kind of leadership we need in the Fleet. LEADING PEOPLE DOING A REAL JOB DOES. We can certainly argue that we've done it the current way (or at least similarly so) almost since USNA was founded, but that doesn't mean that we need to keep doing it that way when newer MORE EFFECTIVE ways can be considered.</p>

<p>Frankly, I think throwing the 1/C out in the Fleet/FMF for six months would be a damned good thing, and would give them an edge over the ROTC guys coming straight from college. It would also give them the same opportunities USMMA Mids get with real-world experiences.</p>

303

<p>Great American, just a side note, that editorial was written by Adm Fowlers classmate.</p>

304

<p>NBC 4 Washington DC</p>

<p>"Midshipmen Complain About Dining Service
Academy Acknowledges Problems"</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nbc4.com/news/13980713/detail.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nbc4.com/news/13980713/detail.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Balrimore Sun</p>

<p>"Mealtimes leave Mids hungry for more"</p>

<p><a href="http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/annearundel/bal-te.ar.food27aug27,0,104877.story%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/annearundel/bal-te.ar.food27aug27,0,104877.story&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

305

<p>
[quote]
This is where we differ and nothing anyone can say on this forum can convince me that a VADM got where he was by being as bad as he is being portrayed with these posts.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Bad? I think you miss the point. I don’t think anyone has or is saying the VADM is not a competent officer, or a poor leader. I would certainly agree that you don’t get to that level if you are either. Assuming this new approach to the organization and operation of the USNA is HIS policy, formulated and implemented by him (and obviously we don’t know if it is or not) than the one legitimate issue that certainly seems clear from the comments of the Mids that have weighed in on this change is a lack of communication and understanding as well as the perception that there is no place or interest in input from young men and women who are supposedly on a track to become leaders and decision makers in their own right. How does that make any sense? </p>

<p>If you take away the opportunity to make mistakes, to make a bad choice from time to time, you take away one of the greatest teaching tools life has to offer. If “excess” EC’s were impacting the academics of some Mids, there are many ways to address the issue short of carpet bombing the entire EC program. If academics were suffering because of ECs, wouldn’t it make more sense to raise academic standards and/or graduation requirements and then let the Mids make the judgment call? Wouldn’t that be the right way to treat the young men and women who are about to face potential life and death decisions on the battlefield? Decisions have consequences; I trust they could figure it out. </p>

<p>
[quote]
FACT: Adm Fowler answers only, and I emphasize only, to the CNO.

[/quote]
You can say exactly the same thing about the Sec Def; he is only answerable to the President. The last one we had made it very clear he had no use for the input of Admirals and Generals that did not agree with methods or implementation the policy objectives of the President. Isn’t it ironic that we are hearing the same thing at this level when you consider the number of flag officers (once they were secure in their retirement) that marched up to Capitol Hill to give testimony on that subject and for the most part, made a point to condemn the policy? The Naval Academy is first and foremost an institution of learning, one that I believe is filled with reasonably mature, intelligent and observant young men and women. What exactly are we trying to teach them? Do you think this message; this experience will be lost on them? </p>

<p>A leader in the position of the VADM doesn’t sit down with his subordinates or the leadership of the brigade to discuss and consider the changes he is about to implement because he is compelled to; he does or doesn’t because that is what he chooses to do. </p>

<p>In the end maybe we’ll hear this was all part of a new approach to learning or some test of the Brigade to assess how it copes with change and stress. I sincerely hope there is more to this than what we as bystanders have seen to date.</p>

306

<p>


</p>

<p>No one here is questioning what he did BEFORE he got here. He has proved his competence at driving subs and teaching others to do the same.</p>

<p>Running the United States Naval Academy is a different story, and so far he is failing miserably. Moral is low. Hungry Mids are not happy Mids, nor are they more attentive in class. </p>

<p>Where his incompetence will show the most is new recruiting. We are going to lose a lot of great prospective Mids because of him. </p>

<p>I personally know of three top-notch, unreservedly recommended candidates who will reject their appointments here and shift their focus to USMA and USAFA. These candidates are +1500 SAT-football team captain-Eagle scout-Top 3 in their school-type candidates. </p>

<p>No new plebe candidates are going to choose malnutrition and robot-like obedience training.</p>

307

<p>USNA69
May I remind you they have picked the wrong guy before. The Supe immediatly before Rempt, VADM Naughton was releived after less than a year by then CNO ADM Vern Clark. They had to bring ADM Larson back for a second term as Supe to fix the damage done by the previous 2 previous Superintendants. So they do make mistakes.</p>

308

<p>
[quote]
Running the United States Naval Academy is a different story, and so far he is failing miserably.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh? By what OBJECTIVE measure?</p>

<p>Morale is down? Big woop. Always is after changes. Sure, the food problem is an issue, but that predated him and we don't know the root cause of it, so using that as a sole measure is a stretch.</p>

<p>Are there mass resignations among students, faculty, or staff? Are there complaints from the Fleet that the officers coming out of USNA are sub-par? Are applications for the next class sharply down? Is the Admiral on the verge of being relieved for cause? No? Okay, then. Until we see THAT sort of activity, I think your conclusion is based more on emotion than fact.</p>

<p>Patience, folks. PATIENCE....</p>

<p>
[quote]
No new plebe candidates are going to choose malnutrition and robot-like obedience training.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A wild accusation full of hyperbole and not backed up by facts. The Midshipmen are NOT being starved, nor are they being trained to be robots. Sheesh. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>
[quote]
They had to bring ADM Larson back for a second term as Supe to fix the damage done by the previous 2 previous Superintendants.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You wouldn't happen to know who they were and what the deal with them (or the guy who got relieved) was, would you? I'm afraid I wasn't paying much attention to that sort of thing at the time, and I'm a bit in the dark on it. Just a thumbnail will do. Thanks. :)</p>

309

<p>Some selections from the first article posted by Naptown above:</p>

<p>
[quote]
"They are not getting fed," said the mother of one midshipman, whom the newspaper did not name because Naval Academy attendees are not allowed to speak with the press in most cases.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>SIR! MY OPERATIONAL CHAIN OF COMMAND IS MYSELF, MY MOTHER, THE BALTIMORE SUN,...." :rolleyes:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Before this year, midshipmen were required to eat in the dining hall only six meals per week.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>WHAT? Why bother running King Hall then? Why not just set up a buffet in Smoke Hall and be done with it? That's fewer than ONE PER DAY, for cripes sake! </p>

<p>
[quote]
The meal changes are part of a sweeping new set of rules brought in by Vice Adm. Jeffrey Fowler, who arrived in June to lead the military college. Other changes include three hours of mandatory study time every night and fewer chances to participate in nonmilitary extracurricular activities.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm still waiting for the list that, in addition to the horrendous tortures described above, have made this man seem like a slave-driver to some.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Some Naval Academy parents told the newspaper

[/quote]
</p>

<p>These people seriously need to shut the hell up. Apparently they haven't learned that "the newspaper" is no friend of USNA at the best of times.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Local grocery stores will deliver cartons of food to the midshipmen, and managers at several Annapolis pizza outlets told the newspaper that deliveries to the Naval Academy have spiked.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I thought they were starving and malnourished?</p>

<p>
[quote]
"We're eight days into mandatory meals,

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Eight days. EIGHT DAYS. EIGHT DAYS! THAT timeframe is causing THIS much of a howling fit among so many?</p>

<p>Boy, I can't wait to see some of these people when their wittle chidwen are serving on a submarine where the fresh milk and vegetables last about 4 days, or with the Marines where you eat MRE's for weeks at a stretch. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>Man, I'm sorry, but the more I hear about theis, the more I believe that what we have here is a bunch of hysterical reactions to half-truths, rumors, and bent egos.</p>

310

<p>Addressing the second article:</p>

<p>
[quote]
They also require them to study from 8 p.m. to 11 p.m. every day and attend at least 15 meals a week.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Poor babies. I remember standing 8 (and oftentimes more) hours of watch per day and eating 21 meals a week in the same small room for months on end. I never knew I was being so maltreated. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Several midshipmen, however, related different experiences earlier in the week, such as one breakfast when some tables ran out of biscuits - but not gravy - and cereal. At one lunch, cold-cut sandwiches were served with bread, some of which had mold, then tortillas when the bread ran out. At dinner, midshipmen - even large varsity athletes - got one slice of pizza.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Over a period of only 8 days. Woopee.</p>

<p>You mean all the times my table ran out of biscuits, or juice, or bacon, or whatever, the solution was to whine to the media rather than find more? Damn, my upperclassmen were jerks! :mad:</p>

<p>
[quote]
The parents asked not to be identified for fear their sons or daughters would be reprimanded for disclosing the problems.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>These ditzes don't seem to understand that their precious little crumb-crunchers could be punished as a group anyway. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>
[quote]
At the academy, food is served family-style to tables of 12 midshipmen. On many nights - one midshipman said every night last week for him - the main dish ran out after eight servings, and midshipmen who had gotten portions had to share with those who got nothing.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So let's see.....</p>

<p>On "many" nights over a period of 8 days.... Wow. What a trend!</p>

<p>They were able to find ONE Midshipman out of 4,000 who had been shafted all eight nights. Hmmm.... Yep, sounds like a Brigade-wide problem! :rolleyes: </p>

<p>
[quote]
"I don't question the changes that were made, because that's not for me to say whether or not they have mandatory meals or anything like that," said another mother, whose son is a varsity athlete. "But I feel very strongly that if changes were going to be made, that appropriate planning should have been done ahead of time."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Despite the fact that your ultimate point is true.... a) Life's tough. I'm quite certain you have NEVER made a decision that you didn't plan well for. b) If it's not for you to say, then STOP TALKING TO THE MEDIA! :mad:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Not everyone sees the food problem as a new development. Several midshipmen said the food at King Hall has always been bad and speculated that the recent griping is probably more due to the fact that everyone is having to eat it now, as opposed to before, when they could go to town or stop by Drydock, an eatery on base. They can't buy food there anymore, except on the weekends.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, if the problem has "always" existed, then we definitely have a problem. Running away from it by eating in town, however, is NOT the solution because you won't have that luxury while on station in the Med.</p>

311

<p>Some Facts NOT Rumors</p>

<p>Women's Glee Club had their retreat this weekend. </p>

<p>1.Which has always been 3 days in PA. It was cut to 10 hours in Alumni Hall. </p>

<p>2.NO Christmas Concerts including Christmas in Washington</p>

<p>3.NO Halloween Concerts</p>

<p>4.NO Off Yard MO's</p>

<p>5.Last FPW Concert</p>

<p>6.They tried to stop having them sing the National Anthem at the HOME Football Games. Rational was the Navy Band is capable of doing it. As of yesterday they thought they were going to get to do about half of the games. </p>

<p>Pipes & Drums</p>

<p>1.NO longer receiving any money from the Academy.</p>

<p>2.NO longer receiving any money from D & B their money was cut too drastically to help support Pipes and Drums.</p>

<p>3.NO Longer a recognized sport which means no practice time.</p>

<p>4.Commander no longer a striper postion.</p>

<p>5.NO MO's which means no longer repreasenting the Naval Academy in Fleet Week, etc....</p>

<p>6.They are still trying to march in the parades but they were told they probably would not.</p>

<p>7.As well as they were told they probably would not be visiting tailgates to entertain at the home football games.</p>

<p>More as the word comes down officially.</p>

312

<p>Wow. So the Women's Glee Club and the Pipes and Drums have been restricted or cut.</p>

<p>Stop the presses! USNA is doomed! :eek:</p>

<p>From USNA P&D History Page:</p>

<p>
[quote]
The current band began unofficially in the summer of 1995 when several midshipmen set the process in motion again. After a year of organization & conducting lessons on an informal level, the band became an officially recognized BSA in the Spring of 1999.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Started unofficially in 1995 and recognized in 1999, eh? How on earth did we ever manage the previous 150 years without this obviously-critical function in place? </p>

<p>Are we supposed to be turning out officers or musicians? :rolleyes:</p>

313

<p>
[quote]

Eight days. EIGHT DAYS. EIGHT DAYS! THAT timeframe is causing THIS much of a howling fit among so many?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Shocking, right?
The next logical question, therfore, should be "why..."<br>
"why" all the howling- complaining- posting-
"why" by "so many"?
"why" ....after years of "lousy food" is this raising such a fuss THIS time....
"why" are there 400+ posts DAILY on the parents list serve, the majority of which over food and ECA issues???</p>

<p>WHY??????
Is it just possible that things have gotten to the breaking point?</p>

<p>Z- not everyone sees it the way you do on this one.</p>

<p>Whatever.
I am pleased to hear the administration is addressing the issue. I am saddened it took this long and it took so much "hysteria" to get it addressed.</p>

<p>Apparently the situation was bad enough that it warrented bringing in a new vendor..... far more than making "adjustments" with the current one.
Perhaps not as trivial a situation as some have suggested.</p>

<p>hysterical moms...
sorry you posted that.</p>

<p>As for planning-
the outcome speaks for itself.</p>

<p>Naptown4-
thanks for the update.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Wow. So the Women's Glee Club and the Pipes and Drums have been restricted or cut.</p>

<p>Stop the presses! USNA is doomed!

[/quote]

no, not doomed.
just quieter.</p>

314

<p>
[quote]
Is it just possible that things have gotten to the breaking point?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would wholeheartedly agree with you...... IF only 8 days alone constituted a long enough trend to identify a "breaking point". They generally aren't.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Z- not everyone sees it the way you do on this one.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yep. They're all wrong. :D</p>

<p>
[quote]
I am pleased to hear the administration is addressing the issue. I am saddened it took this long and it took so much "hysteria" to get it addressed.</p>

<p>Apparently the situation was bad enough that it warrented bringing in a new vendor

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ah! So perhaps we find the root cause at last!</p>

<p>Do you have any idea how fast an organization has to move to get a new vendor to handle food service on the scale of USNA? They seem to have done it in less than two weeks. If only all the other government beauracracies were so responsive! So if the Administration has taken this bold action so quickly, why are so many here raising hell over "delays", and do you really think it was the parental hysteria that precipitated the change, or perhaps that the Supe IS listening to the Brigade after all?</p>

<p>So they have a new vendor. EXCELLENT! Obviously the previous one didn't know what it was doing, even before the new Supe. They deserved to get fired. Now comes the next part: ensuring that the new guy does the job right. I hope they do, and I'm certain the new Supe will be riding them hard on the matter.</p>

315

<p>True sea story;</p>

<p>I agree with Z that onboard ships can be taxing. I also stood bridge watches 6 hours on/6 hours off and had to do my regular engineering job at the same time as well as stand every other watch on the flight deck for incoming helos and was on the flight deck for all refueling evolutions. Basically, slept 1.5 hours at a stretch twice a day for about 5 weeks. We stood watch during the busy time of the exercise. When the tempo slowed on the return trip to Norfolk, the Senior Watch Officer put the other officer in CIC and I stood engineering watches. He thought he was doing me a favor...until on the return trip the Engineering Dept received permission to do emergency drills all the way back. It was up tempo all the way back. I was also the Movie Officer for the ship and we showed six movies a night. During the cruise, I saw one with my engineers on the return trip at about 2 in the morning in after steering. The food though was excellent and best of all I was assigned the task of dining for lunch with a British destroyer in-port...I was certainly overwhelmed by their hospitality. But in the end, it's the tough times and challenges that one remembers. All other trips that I remember anything at all were the tough times, not the easy times. The Mids will remember these days, other days that are more routine will fade with memory. These are times you'll remember and in the out years will not seem so bad.</p>

<p>Now the food story. I went out to two rescue and salvage ships off the coast of Lahaina, Maui. They were lifting the ex-USS Bluegill and transporting her to deeper waters. Our crew was invited to dive on the old submarine and so we were assigned to one ship. For lunch, they said they didn't have much time and so had the regular plastic table cloth and said here's a loaf of bread and there's some cold cuts and bug juice in the wardroom. It wasn't a big deal and after diving anything was much appreciated.</p>

<p>Also tied up alongside the sub was my "old" ship. They saw me and invited me over for lunch. They had the white tablecloth laid out, silverware and had steak and lobster for lunch. I was dumbfounded and pleasantly suprised. I enjoyed the meal but felt guilty as the other members of my dive team didn't eat lunch onboard my old ship, but on the one I was attached to for the exercise. I didn't realize at the time that the meals would be so different but accepted just to see everyone again. I had to offer my dive team an apology when I returned. Two Captains, two ships, different expectations, but both crews were highly motivated. It was the work at hand that motivated the crews. I attribute the difference though to the supply officer. One definitely got it and did his job in an exceptional manner.</p>

<p>Have a great day and Beat Temple!</p>

316

<p>"It's been a hell of a ride, but I need to get off now.
Zaphod out..."</p>

<p>Promises, promises...</p>

317

<p>8 days.....
a blink of an eye for some.
an eternity for others.
sadly, a lifetime for a few.</p>

<p>So on that note, I am suspending my "food" posts.
The new vendor takes effect 9/3.
Will wait and see.</p>

<p>As for the rest-
time reveals all.</p>

318

<p>
[quote]
I attribute the difference though to the supply officer. One definitely got it and did his job in an exceptional manner.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>checkmate.</p>

<p>(any change of getting this officer transferred to the yard any time soon? :o )</p>

319

<p>No joke. The SUPPO can make or break a ship's morale in no time.</p>

<p>If they fired the previous food service company, I'm wondering if the SUPPO will be next, or if he was told "Straighten this mess out ASAP or I'll serve your ASS up for the next Evening Meal!", hence the change.</p>

<p>
[quote]
any change of getting this officer transferred to the yard any time soon?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Might happen sooner than you think. Oh, to be a fly on the wall of the Supe's office! :D</p>

<p>ETA: It will be very interesting to see what comments are posted after September 3rd. I sincerely hope this issue, at least, is addressed. While I am willing to forgive some short-term problems due to unforseen circumstances (and perhaps even a mistake or two), the complaints I've been hearing since 2005 or so are much more of a concern.</p>

320

<p>
[quote]
"It's been a hell of a ride, but I need to get off now.
Zaphod out..."</p>

<p>Promises, promises...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Thrilled as always to disappoint you. I couldn't leave these folks defenseless forever. :D</p>

<p>Besides, I'll only be here a short time longer, then I'll return to my indefinite hiatus. Then you can run wild with all your moonbattery unchallenged again.</p>