Discussion of Changes at USNA

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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<p>Zaphod you must be USNA69's kid!! Right out of the same mold!!
I can tell what kind of Mid you were by your comments.
Whatever you are so out of touch. When was the last time you were on the yard. I see you had no comment about past bad Supes. Hard to argue with the truth that they do get it wrong!</p>

<p>The Alumni we are hearing from (and that is a very large number) who call us because hubby is an alumni and living right here in DTA are very upset! Nothing like you. I give them much more credibility than you as they have stayed in touch with life on the yard.</p>

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<p>I'm not his kid, but we definitely see eye-to-eye on much, but not all. Still, I am honored that you would lump me in with him, no matter how ornery the old man is. ;)</p>

<p>Please understand where I am coming from: I am not defending the new Supe unconditionally, nor am I saying that there are not some serious issues at USNA. All I am saying is to a) let the new Supe do his thing and see where it goes, and b) let's keep the "serious issues" in perspective.</p>

<p>I am just as upset as the next guy at the situation in King Hall. In fact, I am far beyond upset. However, the kind of screeching that has taken place here over a few incidents spaced over 8 days is not, IMO, justified. That said, it has been known for some time that the QUALITY of the food had been on the downswing. That was happening long before Fowler showed up. That it finally seems to be getting addressed is a relief but, in the Words of Ronald Reagan, we should "trust, but verify". If the new FSM does a good job, then great! If not, then more changes will obviously be needed.</p>

<p>To answer your question, I was on the Yard about three weeks ago and ate less than 30 yards from the Brigade while the Plebe Regiment was having lunch in MacDonough. I am not blind to what the conditions are due to the renovation of King Hall.</p>

<p>As for the prior Supes, what difference does it make? I have heard complaints from Alumni ever since I graduated, and they universally were "The place is getting too soft." Now that the new guy is here and cracking the whip, I hear a lot more of them saying, "It's about damned time!" I asked you about the immediately previous ones because you brought them up and I was curious as to what specific issues they had dealt with (or messed up, as the case may be).</p>

<p>As for the cut ECA's I doubt any of them are slitting their wrists or despairing about the future of USNA because the Women's Glee Club can't have a three-day retreat.</p>

<p>As to credibility, I'm afraid my goal is not to build mine with you, but rather to offer the perspective of one Alumni. Nothing more, nothing less. The fact that I have earned credibility with many here and elsewhere, despite disagreements, comforts me in light of your denial of it. </p>

<p>I will say, however, that at least we are all united in wanting what's best for our alma-mater. That, sadly, isn't always the case when large groups of people discuss the issues of the day.</p>

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<p>
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Besides, I'll only be here a short time longer, then I'll return to my indefinite hiatus.

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<p>not again! where are u off to this time?????!!!!!!!!!!!
(inquiring minds want to know!)
(??? ding-dong the bells are gonna chime???? ;) )</p>

<p>Can vouch for Z....
he has been on the yard many times....
and while we don't always "agree," it is those very times when I am ready to take the opposing view that I have to sit back and take a "time out"....
more times than not, he has been on target....and his advice has been spot on, at least to this appreciative mom. </p>

<p>
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will say, however, that at least we are all united in wanting what's best for our alma-mater.

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</p>

<p>and on that note we can all find common ground on which to build.
Respect for the views and opinions of others....whether or not we agree or agree to disagree.... that is what can "make or break" it sometimes.</p>

<p>Z- one final note.
The posts on here re: food issues is only the tip of the iceburg.
The parent list serv posts have been an eye-opener.
When you add the parts together, the problem looms larger than one would hope for.<br>
But here I go- I promised no more food posts.
now see what you made me go and do!</p>

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<p>Are we to believe that this new administration was NOT aware of this 'less than optimal' food situation before the mando meal went into effect? If they applied the " Listen, Learn then Lead" theory to this situation, then they would have KNOWN that the present food situation would not have allowed for success and planned accordingly BEFORE Reform, and not AFTER. Or, am I just completely out of the box and missing something here?</p>

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<p>^^^^no, not out of the box..... a little late getting to the party maybe.... ;)</p>

326

<p>"I was on the Yard about three weeks ago and ate less than 30 yards from the Brigade while the Plebe Regiment was having lunch in MacDonough."</p>

<p>Gee Zaphod what Naval Academy did you visit the Plebes ate in Dahlgren. The Pool is in McDonough. Sounds like you really know your way around well.</p>

<p>I know the food situation will get corrected in time. What the Alumni and I are upset about is the fact that more ECA's than you can imagine have been cut. And some of the ones that have been cut will be hard to bring back if ever in the future. But you were probably a hall rat and never participated. Midshipmen not being allowed to attend away games. But you were probably one of those that didn't like football or complained about having to attend.</p>

<p>Also, the statement we received today it seems he has changed the mission of the Naval Academy himself from what is published on USNA.edu. Maybe he doesn't realize it was revised several years ago to include preparing the Midshipmen to be good citizens and to serve in Governement.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.usna.edu%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.usna.edu&lt;/a>
"The Mission: To develop midshipmen morally, mentally and physically and to imbue them with the highest ideals of duty, honor and loyalty in order to provide graduates who are dedicated to a career of naval service and have potential for future development in mind and character to assume the highest responsibilities of command, citizenship and government</p>

327

<p>
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Gee Zaphod what Naval Academy did you visit the Plebes ate in Dahlgren. The Pool is in McDonough. Sounds like you really know your way around well.

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<p>BWAHAHAHA! You got me! I always got those back-asswards. Got chewed out more than once as a Plebe for that! :D :o</p>

<p>
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What the Alumni and I are upset about is the fact that more ECA's than you can imagine have been cut. And some of the ones that have been cut will be hard to bring back if ever in the future.

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</p>

<p>List, please.</p>

<p>
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But you were probably a hall rat and never participated.

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</p>

<p>I was in plenty, and an officer in my favorite. Don't draw conclusions about things you know nothing about.</p>

<p>
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Midshipmen not being allowed to attend away games. But you were probably one of those that didn't like football or complained about having to attend.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, but neither did I consider getting of the yard a high priority. I knew why I was there, and it wasn't to watch away games.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, the statement we received today it seems he has changed the mission of the Naval Academy himself from what is published on USNA.edu. Maybe he doesn't realize it was revised several years ago to include preparing the Midshipmen to be good citizens and to serve in Governement.

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<p>It was changed by then-SECNAV James Webb when I was a Plebe. How has it been "changed" by Fowler?</p>

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<p>Service Naptown4</p>

<p>score is 15 all</p>

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<p>
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Are we to believe that this new administration was NOT aware of this 'less than optimal' food situation before the mando meal went into effect?

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</p>

<p>I highly doubt they weren't. However, I'd suspect that they expected the supply folks to handle it, which they obviously didn't.</p>

<p>So it was either the Supe's fault, the SUPPO's fault, or both. Either way, the Supe takes the spears since he's in command. At least we see some activity. Let's see where it goes.</p>

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<p>"I was in plenty, and an officer in my favorite. Don't draw conclusions about things you know nothing about."</p>

<p>Gee tell us what you were in and lets see if it is still there!</p>

331

<p>on the food, lack there of and changes in the mill - optimism per one Mid:
"The rest of the menu may taste like a**, but at least we'll have wheat bread."</p>

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<p>Lets!</p>

<p>SCUBA Club (I was the ist LT)
Astronomy Club
Dolphin Club
SAG
National Association of Aeronautics and Astronautics
SUBDUE program (Human-powered submarine project)</p>

<p>and one or two others I can't remember.</p>

<p>SUBDUE is long gone. Astronomy is hardly a priority.</p>

<p>Now, if clubs such as Dolphin, SAG, Semper Fi, etc., have also been reduced/cut (which, despite my requests have not been mentioned), then I would join you in being concerned.</p>

<p>Please provide the list of affected clubs so we don't have to guess.</p>

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<p>I know that Orchestra and SCUBA have both been eliminated.</p>

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<p>I disagree with SCUBA, but not because I was in it. I actually think every Mid should be required to be SCUBA qualified, either civilian or military, as part of their curriculum.</p>

<p>But I'm not the Supe, so I can't make it so. Sad to hear it got cut. It wasn't all that supported even in my day. It's an expensive sport. Was it popular in the past years? It was a see-saw in my time; one year popular, one year not.</p>

335

<p>I seem to remember a post a while ago that one of our very prolific Alumns made as to the diference between a WP, Zoomie and USNA junior officer. The part that stuck with me the most (and I am paraphrasing ) was that a junior USNA officer was trained based on the model that here is the objective, here are the parameters, and here is the timetable. Go forth and accomplish the mission. While on the other Hand the WP and Zoomies were being trained Here is the objective, here are the things you can and cannnot do to achieve them and here are the regulations regarding the above things you can and cannot do. And finally here is how we want you to do it in a step by step procedure. The ARMY/AF way or else. The advantage to that model may be more predictable results to the achievement, however it does not allow for Mr. Murphy's interjection of his Laws. My question is do you see a swing in the pendulum towards the Army/AF Model?</p>

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<p>I sure hope not.</p>

<p>Can anyone lend any credence to the assertion that the Army and AF operate that way? Sounds like a bit of an overgeneralization....</p>

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<p>Tier I: Semper Fi, Aviation Society, SNA, Dolphin, YP Squadron</p>

<p>Tier II: Pretty much any academic club: greek, model UN, chemistry, astronomy, NAFAC, all of the "societies"</p>

<p>Tier III: Ceremonial activities (silent drill, color guard, lucky bag), spirit activities (includes D&B, cheerleaders, pipes & drums, cannoners, bill), and musical activities</p>

<p>Tier IV: MAG, Astronomy Club, Ethnic clubs, chess, girl scouts, paintball, judo, fencing</p>

<p>Tier I: Provided funding, special considerations for MO's
Tier II: Routine must not interfere with Brigade routine
Tier III: Special procedures for deviating from normal routine
Tier IV: Voluntary and must not interfere with fundamental requirements and routines</p>

<p>Limits:
Plebes: Only one Tier I, one Tier II, and one from Tier III or IV. Permission may be granted after making Supes/Dants list in the fall.</p>

<p>Upperclass: Only one Tier I, one Tier II, and two Tier III or IV. </p>

<p>Elgibility:
MO's occur only during authorized liberty time for the member.
Must be in a duty free weekend.
1/C & 2/C may begin MO after LMO on Friday
CQPR >= 2.2</p>

<p>Plebes may not participate in weekend MO's until after 6 weeks grades
If SAT and CO approval, plebes may participate after 6 weeks
CQPR >= 2.5; no F's or 2 D's
MO's (plebes) may not begin earlier than 1200 on Sat and must conclude by EOL formation on Sunday</p>

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<p>"dolphin club" oh Zaphron please tell me your not a Nuke. </p>

<p>I HAVE been trying to report the official things cut. Things I have seen for sure and thats why I started with Glee club. But you immediatly poo pood it. Maybe you don't like Glee club but most people really enjoyed hearing them sing the National Anthem at football games. By the letter we received today it sounds like all of yours are gone. The most recent concerned Mid I heard from has informed me that all their religious ECA's have been cut. Our Seal Mid said their club activities and training have been cut. Gee that sounds like something that will prepare them for the Fleet! All midshipman run club sports have been cut.</p>

<p>It's sad that you are only going to care if its something you care about is cut. </p>

<p>Since you claim to know exactly what is going on at the Academy, did you know that half of the Plebes were not allowed to attend the 11:00 Service in Chapel the first Sunday of Plebe summer? And when people found out (mostly local alumni) it was quickly vorrected. They felt making noon meal formation was more important. No I bet you didn't. And since it was rectified by Monday afternoon it wasn't "Meddling Moms" who called and complained because they hadn't even had a chance to receive a letter from their Plebe letting them know. I did hear later from a Mom that her son wrote and apologized for missing communion that Sunday. So these things do matter to some of the Mids. Just not to you!</p>

<p>I might know a little bit about what I am talking about instead of just "usta fishing" about the good old days and getting back to when it was a
"real academy" I'm sure if you had a child there or if you sponsored some of these great Mids that we here in Annapolis care so much about and have the honor of knowing personally, I would hope you would be a little more caring about the situation.</p>

<p>Just keep bringing it on! I for one am doing axactly what my Alumni hubby and my alumni friends are telling me to do. And I am also feeding alot more Mids than I normally do!</p>

339

<p>
[quote]
on the food, lack there of and changes in the mill - optimism per one Mid:
"The rest of the menu may taste like a**, but at least we'll have wheat bread."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>LOL!!!!</p>

<p>( I know i promised- and I really meant it... :o .... but does that mean they have done away with the peanut butter and jelly on the tables? :eek: )</p>

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<p>Thanks for that list, Jadler! Could you remind me what SNA is?</p>

<p>As for the rest of that information, I see nothing substantially different than what was in place during my tenure EXCEPT for the limitation on how many ECA's you can be in. That surprises me, and I'm afraid I don't see the value in it.</p>

<p>Otherwise, looks pretty routine.</p>

<p>Oh, and for some reason I remember Judo being a club sport that counted toward your sport requirement. Not certain, however.</p>

<p>
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"dolphin club" oh Zaphron please tell me your not a Nuke.

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</p>

<p>No, but not because I didn't want to be. My own damned fault I didn't study enough. :(</p>

<p>Naptown, I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm just trying to understand. I will take Glee Club as an example for the following discussion.</p>

<p>You claim that they have been "cut". I understand "cut" as "eliminated". However, if by "cut" you mean along the lines of what Jadler posted, then I have to ask why putting academic and military needs before that club would be seen as a bad thing? While you are absiolutely correct that the Glee Club (both men and women's) are a delight to listen to, they should not be maintained at the expense of other programs more to the core of USNA's Mission.</p>

<p>So, I have to ask: Have I been interpreting you incorrectly (in which case I am more than happy to apologize) or are we perhaps reacting too harshly to restrictions that don't sound all that bad to those of use who lived under similar ones?</p>

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I would hope you would be a little more caring about the situation.

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<p>I am VERY caring, and I have helped many here, both on and off the board, for no other reason than I love the place and want to see the Mids succeed and not make the same mistakes I did. Believe me, I care.</p>