Discussion of Changes at USNA

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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<p>My one concern with all these policies is the micro-management. Obviously, in the military there is plenty of that, but at the same time this is a training command.</p>

<p>I am concerned that too much micro-managing won't help MIDN make decisions, both for the good and bad. Officers are paid to make decisions...at the end of the day that is one thing that seperates enlisted from officers. If they can't make good decisions (minus honest mistakes...no one is perfect), then their aptitude for commission should be in question...we have AcBoards...people do slip by the cracks, though...that will never change!</p>

<p>Decisions...as in...should I attend meal and interact with the squad or whoever is sitting at the table....should I study or blow off work....should I go on a trip this weekend or hold back.....should I put my work aside to help someone else....should I workout or be lazy....should I drink as much alcohol as possible or drink lots of sodas (I'm not saying that there shouldn't be harsh penalties)...and the list could go on. Now, pretty much all the choices are made. So...are we really becoming better officers by having all of our choices made for us?</p>

<p>I am wondering that after graduation, if the newly commissioned officers will have formed habbits or if they will become lazy due to the restrictions.</p>

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[QUOTE]

There was a West Point Major who either posted or was quoted on CC several months ago, discussing sitting at the tables at WP and how it had molded him into the officer which he had become, basically attributing it to his success in Desert Storm.

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<p>My question is...was he forced to go...or did he DECIDE to go?</p>

<p>============
This is just one look at the situation.</p>

162

<p>
[quote]
Officers are paid to make decisions...

[/quote]

And very modestly at that. :eek: :( But not to digress into officer wages ... or lack thereof ...</p>

<p>jadler, you're addressing an excellent and important point, i.e. how to nurture sound decision making. I don't know the answer and won't concur with your implied notion that your views of this being micro-management (again I'm not sure I'd describe it as such in the context of the SA experience) are detrimental to development. Your excellent point is not lost though.</p>

163

<p>jadler.... you don't know how refreshing your post was today. Thankyou. </p>

<p>Hang in.
Watch over your plebes and underclassmen and take care of them....
I hope you have great supporters to take care of you.</p>

<p>and you are so right...this is a training command.
just as there are truely great leaders, and leadership styles, so are there those that fall short of the mark. Take what you can from the best, and make that your style. Unfortunately, sometimes we learn the real lessons from the others. It all counts.</p>

164

<p>This is all such BS . . .
First all, JAdler has it correct. . . enough said.</p>

<p>Let's see . . . you have a bunch of alumni who say that "if we had to do it that way, you sh ould to." Given that line of reasoning, maybe we should be learning how to use sextants too.</p>

<p>Fact is, this is NOT Iraq. We are NOT on a ship. We can all pretend to be sailors and we can all pretend to be soldiers/seals/sailors and so on, but we are not. We chose a different college experience, but if I had wanted to be on teh button, I could have enlisted.</p>

<p>Listen, Learn, Lead. . . .well, as far as I am concerned, the Supt. has not been listening nor has he been learning. He sure as heck hasn't been leading. Except for the pictures I've seenof him, I would barely recognize him.</p>

<p>We may be a nation at war, but I suspect most of the nation doesn't know that. I'm as sorry as the next guy that people are dying in Iraq but that doesn't seem to sto the rest of the country from enjoying life. I think even our esteemed Presdient has said that life goes on.</p>

<p>I am FULLY AWARE that I will be on a ship in a couple of years. I am VERY AWARE that some ships go on extended cruises w/out leave very often.
I DON'T HAVE TO BE REMINDED of that nor do I have to experience the deprivation to appreciate it. (You know what? I bet having achild is really painful. I don't have to have one to be compassionate about that.)</p>

<p>The fact is, this IS a college. We get COLLEGE DEGREES at graduation. We live in, surprise, a DORMITORY.
If the hard core think we need to suffer in order to appreciate our brethern at war, then have us sleep in tents, feed us MRE's the whole four years, and have us practice shooting something every week.</p>

<p>If we need to only participate in those functions that further our warfare community options, then WHAT IN THE HECK ARE DOING HAVING TO GO TO FOOTBALL GAMES?</p>

<p>Finally, these new rules blanket the Brigade. Without regard to how a mid is doing [despite exhortations to the contrary], a mid with a 4.0 is being treated to the same restrictions as a mid w/ 2.0 w/ regard to study time, ECA participation.</p>

<p>I'm REALLY GLAD you old alumni can sit around and talk about how great these changes are, how we needed to get back to basics, how the Academy had become a country club. But, you know what? That was your time. This is my time. I could have gone to an Ivy League, I could be having fun right now. I chose not to.
I understand. I'll graduate. I'll be in the Navy. I'll do a good job.</p>

<p>I will be REALLY GLAD--unless things change--to be out of this situation.
Too bad that a Supe has to be so narrow-minded [how does a guy like this get to be an Admiral anyway?] as to paralyze the Brigade. To ruin, at least this month, what was proving up to be an exceptional experience.</p>

<p>The Brigade will survive. The Academy will go on.</p>

<p>I wonder? Is this the Peter Principle at work?</p>

165

<p>Um yeah Jamtex pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as echoing the sentiments of probably 90%+ of the upperclass (the plebes don't know the difference so they don't complain about it too much)...</p>

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<p>With your present attitude, probably. However, if you step back, realize that maybe you don't know everything, try to figure out why this is being done, and then try to help to correct the problem, there may be hope for you yet. It is all up to you.</p>

167

<p>Unfortunately for us, a three star admiral won't be there to hold our hands when we're ensigns, so why should we have one now?</p>

<p>I'm afraid that the CHOICE to make the right decisions is embedded in the system. Now that all of these choices are being made for us, I don't want to fall into the trap of being more of a follower when our time to actually lead comes.</p>

<p>Is anyone catching my drift here?</p>

<p>Shouldn't we know the consequences of our own decisions before we do hit the fleet?</p>

168

<p>I don't have to step back to realize that I don't know everything. I don't know everything; I've never claimed otherwise. I just know, in my situation and with regard to most of my shipmates, the changes are resented [more than may have been applicable in your day, sir] a great deal than the circumstances merit. Especailly when you consider that even the Supe has said there was "no crisis at the Academy" and just about every outside organization has continued to rate the Academy, its students, and it programs as being superior.</p>

<p>What does my present attitude have to do with the Peter Principle applying to the promotion of man that has been in the Navy longer than I've been alive? My attitude is meaningless in the greater scheme of things and, believe me, the plebes in my company know nothing of my "attitude." Again, that doesn't mean I can reserve my thoughts to myself and post them anonymously on here so the general public can see them. Or is this "tarnishing" the image?</p>

<p>Try to correct the problem? I'm afraid you would be one of the first to say that I don't have any say in the matter. Remember? I'm supposed to carry out the orders of my CO, which I will do faithfully. That doesn't mean I've checked my mind at the door and don't have an opinion.</p>

169

<p>


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Take it from someone "who has been in the Navy longer than 'you' have been alive", you are only kidding yourself.</p>

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You do have a say. You could begin by following orders and observe the mandatory study hours instead of surfing the internet.</p>

170

<p>Fair enough [although, because of circumstances I care not to explain, I really haven't had too much interaction w/ plebes this year] but if you think these changes are necessary or will improve the Academy . . . well, you are kidding yourself too.</p>

<p>That's it for the night. Adios and everybody keep kidding yourselves about all this.</p>

<p>Oh yeah . . . "observe the mandatory study hours" . . . what, exactly do you think mids do with all of this time? NOW who's kidding themselves. . . .
(By the way, my grade point average is fine, I pass the PRT, and my OOM is in the top 25% . . . I don't need any advice on studying habits.)</p>

171

<p>JamTex,</p>

<p>I actually think that your response is very reasonable. And despite all the rhetoric from myself and others on this list, we're not in your shoes, you have the pulse of the Brigade better than parents and/or alumni do. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, just as we are. </p>

<p>For those looking for alumni to weigh in on the changes...I can tell you that my grad husband is still VERY unhappy with what he is hearing from our Mid and his classmates that live close to or on the Yard. We have both counseled our son to do as JamTex and carry out the orders of his CO and abide by all the rules. He and we agree that this is not the end of the world as we know it, but also agree that this situation could/should have been handled better. For myself, I would expect better from a 3-star, but I don't know how many of the changes come directly from him or from the Dant. I will tell you that I was unimpressed with his response to some of the questions posed to him on GoMids.com. If he didn't want to answer questions, then he should not have agreed to the interview. Very disappointing. </p>

<p>Having said all that, we will reserve final judgement and hope that like some have said he is listening to feedback from others, it was noted that the Supt. had originally planned to cancel PPW and FPW, but was convinced to continue with these as they are similar to a Tiger Cruise in the fleet. I'm not saying that I have to have things all my way, some of the changes are good, but the execution of the changes and some of the reasoning has been abysmal.</p>

172

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<p>I never gave you any advice on study habits. I gave you advice on following orders.</p>

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<p>Guys,apparently there is a whole other level out there of which you cannot even begin to comprehend. Try stepping up to the plate instead of whining and crying.</p>

174

<p>What does the 4 class system have to do with the changes being made? The 4 class system was there before VADM took the helm.</p>

<p>
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For myself, I would expect better from a 3-star, but I don't know how many of the changes come directly from him or from the Dant.

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<p>Regardless of who they came from, this is his command. Any policy change that happens at the Academy is, in the end, his policy, regardless of whos desk it stemmed from.</p>

<p>
[quote]
With your present attitude, probably. However, if you step back, realize that maybe you don't know everything, try to figure out why this is being done, and then try to help to correct the problem, there may be hope for you yet. It is all up to you.

[/quote]
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<p>The problem remains that when you do step back, i.e. graduate, and see the changes at the Academy, you can't help but question what is going on....</p>

<p>The micromanagement of time to that level seems a bit excessive to the point where not only do mids not have the time to make decisions for what they can do with free time, but even more, the dont have the time to do the workouts needed to stay in good physical shape...</p>

<p>The cutting of entirely mid run ECAs takes away valuable leadership opportunities that midshipmen have to develop themselves...</p>

<p>Why cut football pep rallies? Granted, we are a nation at war, however, football pep rallies do not provide a negative effect on our training. Conversely, they show how little events such as football pep rallies can improve the moral of a unit. Improving the morale of the unit thus helps improve the unit's performance...</p>

<p>There seems to be this huge shift towards solely military evolutions. Personally, I believe that the professional programs should work to develop leadership as much as possible. A military framework is positive, however, to shun anything that isn't military works directly against the leadership development of the midshipmen by taking away valuable leadership opportunities that do not fall into the military framework.</p>

175

<p>Indeed the good major is crediting the 4th class system (which, believe me, is still going strong here at USNA...just ask the plebes), but the 4th class system has no correlation with mids learning to manage their time (on their own) or gain valuable leadership experience outside of military evolutions. The 4th class system is one of the few things not changed here, thankfully, and as such it has nothing to do with the changes imposed recently.</p>

176

<p>THANKS TO ALL OF THE CURRENT MIDS on CC!</p>

<p>Thanks you so much for posting, it really has helped shed a different light on this discussion. It does help me to get a sense of what you are feeling, experiencing... I appreciate your insightfulness.</p>

<p>As a parent this is quite frustrating to have entrusted your son or daughter to an institution that they and you have researched and found to be the best educational/military/leadership experience for what they are looking for. Then in less than two weeks one can not even recognize that institution. </p>

<p>Alumni and the parents on this site can make statements all day long but at the end on the day it is your opinions and arguments that are the most valuable to me.</p>

<p>You have all stepped up to the plate. I for one appreciate everything that you are doing. </p>

<p>Thanks
A very appreciative mom.</p>

177

<p>USNA69,</p>

<p>Sorry, I think I misread the item I quoted....I thought he went to eat with his cadets at WP (as an officer)...I understand that he was describing his plebe year (obviously).</p>

<p>At USNA, it is nice to see a handful of officers, mostly Marines, sit with their company for noon meal...mind you they do it on their own.</p>

178

<p>jadler, jamtx, et al....</p>

<p>I will second profmom above....
and as hard as it must be to follow and lead right now, our prayers to out to you and the rest of 08 to continue to do the best job you can. It is helpful to us (this parent at least) to gain another perspective on what is going on... and I hope you will continue to come back here to post and help us see things from the "mid view". </p>

<p>again, you end up learning the most from the leaders before you.... both what makes a good leader and what leaders leave lots to be desired...hopefully you take the good, learn to discriminate it out from the bad, and develop your style accordingly. </p>

<p>But thanks for not checking your brain at the door....
that would be a huge mistake.</p>

<p>I have faith you will get through this along with your underclassmen, who will have to follow-on after you leave....
we are all praying that the pendulum finds some equilibrium soon....
and some sense comes out of all of this.
in the meantime, do your best...
watch out for your squads...
take care of your plebes...
and add a few prayers in for the supe...sounds like he could use some right now.</p>

<p>and thankyou-thankyou-thankyou!!!</p>

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<p>The WP Major’s post was probably mistitled. It should have been called ”Plebe Tables”. This was his WP plebe observation:</p>

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[quote]
As I went through it, I did not understand how cutting a pie into nine equal pieces would help an officer lead soldiers into battle. The myriad of disjointed memorizations, ludicrous tasks and perpetual panic mode seemed to have very little to do with the profession of arms……………………………………………………………………. It’s goal was not harassment, ridicule, or punishment. Its goal was to train the neural network to deal with an overwhelming amount of disjointed information, quickly process that information, categorize it, and make rapid, sound decisions.

[/quote]
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<p>This is a perfect description of what recently was only happening once a day at USNA that is now occuring three times per day. It will be three times as effective. This is where the real AcBoard of a plebe’s suitability for Naval service is determined. This is more important than anything you will ever learn in Rickover or Michelson. This is where a young Lt once learned only a few years back how to bring his aircraft back to the boat, mission complete, with battle damage and an instrument panel making him want to start humming "Jingle Bells". This is what allows a Marine Captain to perform exactly as this WP Army Major once he gets in combat. Do I need to continue?</p>

<p>Before you tell me that you are doing this, only elsewhere, tell me why you had rather waste valuable study or workout time accomplishing what, the most of, could just as easily be performed at meal time, since one has to eat anyway.</p>

<p>Quit complaining. Quik accepting the acolytes of misinformed meddling moms. Make the most of what makes your four years on the Severn something special.</p>

180

<p>Would one of the Mids please clarify something for me?</p>

<p>What does the "new" Study Hours policy actually require? Does it require that everyone be on the Yard, that everyone be in their rooms at their desks with a book, or something else?</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

<p>ETA: Also, if you guys could please provide an "official" list of the changes, including those that did or did not make it to the newspapers, I'd appreciate it.</p>