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<p>Yeah, seriously, essentially what he/she is saying is that it’s ok to discriminate as long as it against a small number of people, in other words, against a minority.</p>
<p>And to quote from the civil rights site referenced above, “It is not right to fight discrimination with discrimination, our goal is diversity.” Enrollment data suggests the elites are moving in that direction. The same cannot be said for many state flagship.</p>
<p>As for posts 160 and 161, I find it illuminating that here on CC, posters are indignant against ALLEGED discrimination against a small subset of elite applicants, who probably have numerous other opportunities, when huge numbers of qualified applicants are forced into much lower level colleges or can’t even go to college at all. Many of these applicants are even paying taxes to fund the state colleges that they can’t access. The focus on the supposed indignities of a small number of entitled applicants is disturbing given the crisis state of American higher education.</p>
<p>speedo, can you clarify your post ^? I’m not sure what you mean in comparing elites and state flagships with regard to not fighting “discrimination with discrimination.” I completely agree with “it is not right to fight discrimination with discrimination”–thus, I believe that racial affirmative action is illegal, at least so long as colleges continue to accept federal funding (and ideally ought to be illegal regardless, by the 14th Amendment to the Constitution).</p>
<p>[Archived:</a> Paige to Highlight Race-Neutral Alternatives in Higher Education](<a href=“News | U.S. Department of Education”>News | U.S. Department of Education)</p>
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<p>How exactly are these “huge numbers of qualified applicants…forced into much lower level colleges”? Is there a modern-day George Wallace keeping them down? Sinister intervention from The Man, perhaps? Please elaborate.</p>
<p>Supporting treatment without regard to race hardly qualifies as an “entitled” attitude. As I’ve said before, the whole “you have a sense of an entitlement” mantra indicates a none-too-subtle belief that Asians should be grateful for what they have, that daring to advocate for race-neutral admissions is akin to Oliver Twist’s asking for more gruel.</p>
<p>I didn’t think I’d have to explain this but - college has become too expensive.
Middle and lower income Americans can’t afford to send their kids to anything other than the local community college. Qualified kids who years ago went to the state flag now go to a lower level state u. Kids that used to go away to college now stay home and work, sometimes multiple jobs to pay their way. Other kids and families take out huge loans to finance it. For those who graduate there are few good paying jobs and they can’t pay the loans. Other families have experienced job loss and their kids have to leave school and make other plans. Other kids have no options and end up in Afghan. That’s the current reality where I live and from what I hear in many other parts of America.</p>
<p>And people here are quoting Martin Luther King and ready to crusade for applicants with the stats to get into most colleges in America and probably get merit aid to pay for it, because they get turned down at some Ivy because of alleged discrimination. Give me a break! They deserved a brand new Lexus and only got a brand new Toyota. They’ve been discriminated against! Boo Hoo Hoo. Pulease!</p>
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<p>Why not just think about all of the people in the world who can’t even get a middle school education? Surely the travails of the poor American middle class pale in the face of a lack of educational opportunity for the poorer rest of the world. If there’s something worse out there, you shouldn’t complain about your problems!</p>
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<p>Lets all admit these kids into Harvard. Surely that would make the world a better place.</p>
<p>speedo, the problem of students not being able to afford college is HUGE and OVERARCHING and oh, UTTERLY IRRELEVANT to the question of whether Asians face discrimination in elite college admissions. One great injustice does not excuse another smaller injustice.</p>
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<p>duh. have you been living under a rock? >_<</p>
<p>I have to apologize for all my statements and my lack of compassion for the thousands of super qualified Asian students who may or may not have been able to get into an elite college because of alleged discrimination. This slight will probably scar them for life and from now on I will spend my time crusading on their behalf. I realize that getting a full ride to a slightly lesser university is truly shameful. They deserve admittance even if the admissions people didn’t think so and now I will picket outside the admissions offices every day until this wrong is righted. I will also donate my life savings to the CC fund for disadvantaged Asian elite college applicants who have suffered such indignities. I will not rest until every app has been reviewed and this massive act of discrimination has been corrected. I am now preparing an online petition to change the Constitution to prevent this from ever happening again. In the words of Martin Luther King, “I have a dream that all elite school applicants, especially Asian ones, will one day be created equal…” Please accept my sincere apologies and a swift kick in the ass… See you on another thread</p>
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<p>Are you serious? Being born as an Asian AUTOMATICALLY raises your percentage to be a success? Is that what you’re really saying?</p>
<p>Look, even from a stereotypical perspective, let’s say you are an Asian student who studies and has parents who force you into private tutors and push you to get good scores and takes 11 years of piano to pad your resume (basically my scenario and MANY others I assure you) Is it like we don’t work hard for the first 17 years of our lives? That getting those good grades is simply a result of us being Asian??</p>
<p>Even if a lot of AA are getting high test scores and SAT scores, it’s not like we don’t work for them. We study hard. But, instead of being rewarded for it, we’re basically getting screwed over for it. I know a African American Female who, socially, is in the same class as I am (Middle Class American) and she honestly isn’t that smart and doesnt study as hard as I do. But honestly, at times I’m a bit ****ed off because I know she’ll have a MUCH easier time getting into a college because she’s African American and she doesn’t need as good grades. But me, I get 2300+ SAT and rank 3/550 in my class and I’ll have to fret over applications because I’m not Varsity Captain of my football team.</p>
<p>BTW: I do have some extracurriculars. Besides 11 years piano, I play basketball. (I’m just not varsity captain)</p>
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<p>Wow, did Asian college applicants kill your mom or something?</p>
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<p>The reason people asked you for clarification is because “economic discrimination” could mean several different things.</p>
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<p>The problem is that you think college is all about putting a Lexus in the garage. It’s all about economic opportunity to you. The people who push themselves in school are trying to do more than that, to contribute to society–whether it be by finding a cure for a disease, developing a new technology, or writing the next great American novel. Perhaps they should have access to the tools to do so. Or maybe like you say we should send them a message that the extreme amount of effort they are putting in is not worth it–instead maybe they should cash in with their college degree. Perhaps they go work for an investment bank instead of devoting their life to mathematics. If a guy is interested in biology, maybe they should become a doctor instead of spending years in a lab finding the cure for cancer for low pay. </p>
<p>And you still have yet to state why discrimination against Asian qualified candidates helps those who can’t afford to go to college. And what makes you think that there aren’t plenty of super-qualified Asians that aren’t poor or middle class?</p>
<p>"Are you serious? Being born as an Asian AUTOMATICALLY raises your percentage to be a success? Is that what you’re really saying?}</p>
<p>Actually, I’m no stats wizard, but I KNOW I didn’t say anything about automatically. In fact, in my earlier post, I SPECIFICALY said “leaving aside who is at fault or deserving.”</p>
<p>I don’t pretend I understand ALL the factors that lead to the statistics about racial differences in academics, health, life span, etc. I’m sure it has a lot to do with things in an individuals control. OTOH, I don’t believe it is all, or maybe even mostly in most individuals control. I have no links to support that, but I spend almost every day of my life dealing with that possibility. </p>
<p>But that was not my point.</p>
<p>I am only saying that sometimes I feel my children s children are doomed. Even though my kids are bright, and I am well off. That’s what I end up thinking when people say it “sucks” to be Asian. (Not that that was said on this thread…)</p>
<p>My comment simply shared a feeling and a thought. </p>
<p>Hey, it’s a public forum.</p>
<p>Um… <em>pushes away antagonism clearly lurking on this thread</em></p>
<p>So I’ve always wondered how this works 
Colleges/business/EVERYBODY says that by so and so section of the US law they don’t discriminate on gender, race, ethnic origin, disability…blah blah blah. So why do they specifically ask if you’re a URM? And why is it common knowledge that Asian applicants have a tougher draw?</p>
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<p>Actually, what colleges ask is a specific pair of questions mandated by a federal regulation. </p>
<p>[U.S</a>. Department of Education; Office of the Secretary; Final Guidance on Maintaining, Collecting, and Reporting Racial and Ethnic Data to the U.S. Department of Education [OS]](<a href=“http://www.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/other/2007-4/101907c.html]U.S”>http://www.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/other/2007-4/101907c.html) </p>
<p>It’s not at all clear that all colleges even consider that information in admission decisions. It is known that some colleges that ask (because federal regulations require them to ask) do NOT consider race in admission decisions (because of state laws on that subject). Many colleges admit a large number of students who don’t report their own ethnicity, </p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063172559-post8.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063172559-post8.html</a> </p>
<p>and colleges are permitted to simply report those students to the federal government as “race/ethnicity unknown.”</p>
<p>Re:Cal Tech</p>
<p>Keilexandra, the author of “The Price of Admission”, a skeptic I respect, somehow was able to believe that Cal Tech was above such gaming. You are a very sophisticated poster, particularly for someone who is still in high school. And honest. I respect you very much. I predict a VERY positive future for you. I’m ready to adopt you as my daughter.
However, Cal Tech has a many year history of accepting female applicants at twice the rate of male applicants. I am referring to many years of data that the school itself reports in its Common Data Set. What admissions people at Cal Tech have claimed to you as the reality of admissions at Cal Tech are not just “not candid”, they are lies.
Moving to the realm of complete speculation, I’m also ready to believe they discriminate against Asian-Americans. If they ever were to reveal such admissions figures, I could easily be proven wrong. But they don’t. We know that what they claim re: gender issues is false on the data.</p>
<p>^^Higher admission rates for females at Caltech are due to the fact that girls only apply to a tech place like Caltech if they are super-qualified. They call this “self-selection.”<br>
More unqualified guys apply. </p>
<p>So Caltech is not lying.</p>
<p>^ You are correct about Keilexandra. She seems to be a very remarkable young woman (Although I am not ready to adopt her). Another very articulate poster is fabrazio. He will also go places.</p>
<p>Well, I think danas was referring to Dan Golden rather than keilexandra. Too many commas in that sentence.</p>
<p>To danas, you may not believe what I wrote, but I am generally a skeptic as well and from what I’ve seen Caltech is for real. And “self-selection” can be a powerful force. I went to a magnet math and science school, and Caltech and to a lesser extent MIT had an “ick” factor associated with it among the girls. To my knowledge, only one girl from my high school applied to Caltech (and got in.) But she was in the top 10 of her class, which at my school meant pretty much automatic admission to MIT or Caltech.</p>