Early Decision vs Financial Aid

Paying for College
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<p>Middle son (rising senior) has high enough stats to have a couple of nice safety schools financially.</p>

<p>However, his dream school is looking like a school where he will just be at the top 25th percentile with stats (ACT 34 --> 36E, 34M, 33R, 32S, if superscored, replace the 33R with a 35). He is not a NMS having only gotten a 212 on the PSAT - didn't get to finish the first math section due to a timing issue.</p>

<p>Our local school district doesn't do AP tests (or IB) - just some college in the high school classes and those are only for seniors. We pulled him out to homeschool after 6th grade due to the subpar academics locally, but stuck with what his peers were doing by having him do a couple of Community College Classes his junior year (college level Microbio and Effective Speaking - both As, was the top student in his Microbio class). He also self-studied 100% and got a 5 on AP Stats - his only AP. No one around here does SAT 2 tests, so those weren't even on our radar until now, and frankly, we don't feel like bothering with them, so have axed any schools where they are a requirement for homeschoolers. (Emory comes to mind, but it was the only one. We aren't even going to visit them.)</p>

<p>His ECs should be decent, but he didn't start his own non-profit or similar.</p>

<p>White male. No hooks unless they look at the average income for our zip code. (Semi-rural, but in PA, a normally higher than average state, but not right where we are.)</p>

<p>His LORs should be outstanding - from his academic profs at cc plus he can get a community group leader who knows him well and they've done a bit together.</p>

<p>Obviously, he'd have a better chance going ED at his potential dream school, BUT we don't know what the financial package will be. Like many business owners in this economy, our income has slipped considerably. Our EFC last year was around $6000 and we have his older brother in college (with nice aid - different school). It might be a little higher for next year, but a bit of that will depend on the next 4 months. It's NOT looking good at the moment.</p>

<p>Should I tell him just to apply RD to all schools and hope for the best?</p>

<p>Can he apply ED to his favorite and drop it due to the financial clause in favor of one of his safeties if the finances come with a bit of loans?</p>

<p>Will he need to accept any scholarship $$ from his safeties before we even hear from his dream school?</p>

<p>Sometimes I think I should tell him to go for it and other times I feel I should just aim him toward his safeties and not worry about the rest. I was actually hoping one of his safeties would be his favorite, but after we visited, it's not. We have one more to visit - if we can afford the trip next month.</p>

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<p>Different schools view business owners’ issues differently. This sort of complicates your son’s financial aid picture because you can’t predict how this one college will use your business finances to award institutional aid.</p>

<p>You already sound like you are looking for an “out” via the finances for the ED school should they not be favorable for you. That being the case, it sounds like finances ARE a consideration for your family. Therefore, I would suggest your son apply RD to a variety of schools including this ONE favorite and then you can compare bottom line costs.</p>

<p>The only caveat I would give…some schools have their OWN financial aid calculator ON the websites. If this school has one, use it and see what it gives you (understanding that your actual end of year 2011 will be what REALLY counts). Estimate your 2011 numbers well…and see what you get. OR see if the school will give you an “early read” on your financial aid as an ED candidate…some schools will…most schools won’t.</p>

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<p>I personally do not like ED for anyone who needs financial aid. When it works out, it’s beautiful, but when it does not, it’s one big headache in an already stressful situation. If your finances are straightforward and you know that your 2011 income/assets are going to be pretty much what you estimate them to be, you can get a good idea what your package will be from the estimate you get with an acceptance. You also have to have the stomach to turn down the school if the aid is not what you want before you know what else you might be getting from other schools. So you are taking that risk. </p>

<p>Also, kids change their minds. A young lady I know who had her heart set on a school and was accepted ED there got second thoughts about incurring the type of debt and putting her family through a financial squeeze when she could go to the state school’s honor college for free. A lot of her classmates were going that route and she came to the conclusion that it was the better choice. A half year is still a large chunk of time in the maturity process for our kids. What looks so good in November may not in May.</p>

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He can drop it for any reason if the FA is not enough to support attendance, and it’s solely the family’s decision. You do indeed have to balance the possible admission advantage ED confers (and getting the stress over early) against not being able to compare FA packages. Many/most schools include federal loans (somewhere around 10% of cost).</p>

<p>Consider [You’re</a> In. Can You Back Out? - New York Times](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/education/edlife/strategy.html]You’re”>You’re In. Can You Back Out? - The New York Times)</p>

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<p>The timing issue of ED with financial aid does put the family in a conundrum. Yes, they can turn down the offer if the aid is inadequate, but they may missed merit scholarship deadlines at other schools in the meantime. There is also the real possibility that they may turn down an ED offer because it seems financially too much of a stretch, only to find out it was the best offer!</p>

<p>Applying RD allows one to see all the offers and make a decision that may include a gap year with time to either work and save more or apply to a different set of schools with more options for merit aid.</p>

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<p>This student can apply ED to his dream school…AND apply to other schools as well before the deadlines for scholarships have passed. He cannot apply to more than one school ED…or to a SCEA school. If he applies ED…and gets accepted…he will need to make a decision about that ED acceptance VERY quickly. If he decides yes, he is required to withdraw ALL other applications and acdeptances. If he says NO…he loses the ED acceptance and financial aid.</p>

<p>NOW…here is the rub. Those OTHER schools to which he applies for RD admission will likely give him his financial aid award until well AFTER that ED decision needs to be made. The ED financial aid offer MIGHT be the best one he gets…but he will have no way of knowing that because his decision will need to be made BEFORE he gets the other offers.</p>

<p>Here is what he cannot do…he cannot accept the ED offer and also keep his other applications/acceptances “alive”…just to see if someone else gives him a better offer in the RD round. When he accepts his ED offer, he also signs a form saying he has withdrawn ALL other applications and acceptances.</p>

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<p>^^^ Thanks for the thoughts everyone. Having read them and thought about them some more, I do think applying RD will be our way to go. If he doesn’t get into the school he likes the best, then we’ll just have to figure it wasn’t meant to be.</p>

<p>Many moons ago I went to my #2 choice due to finances and had a very enjoyable four years + still got a decent education. I have no regrets - not one. I’ve made sure I’ve stressed to him that #2 (or 3, 4, 5) will all be what he makes of it. We’ve had “the talk” (about finances). He wants Pre-Med, so we’ve had that talk too (cost of med school, etc). He knows he’s going where it will be least expensive or close to it.</p>

<p>His top choice (so far) is a school well known for aid, but I don’t believe they guarantee anything other than “we do all we can to make it financially affordable for students.”</p>

<p>They don’t have a financial aid calculator online that I could see.</p>

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<p>Creekland, ask their financial aid office if they have some calculators. There is an institutional aid estimator, as well that is generic. But again, this is just an estimate.</p>

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<p>the short answer is no. for the most part part, unless there is rolling admissions involved, he will hear about admissions, but he will not hear bout the merit money until after the ED deadline. Depending on the school, he may have to accept or turn down the ED school before the end of the year. The downside of ED is that you do not have the luxury of comparing packages.</p>

<p>It sounds like money is a huge consideration along with the ability to see what he stands to gain from other schools. You should really go the RD route.</p>

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<p>Let me amend my answer, you can turn down ED if the money is not correct. However, unless you are applying someplace with a guaranteed scholarship, you most likely will not know if the money you get from the ED will be the best offer because you will not have the luxury of comparing packages.</p>

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<p>I think I will if this school is still his number one choice after that last visit.</p>

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<p>Is the Dream school a CSS Profile school? If so, it may handle a business income very unfavorably compared to FAFSA. Some of those CSS schools “add back in” deductions and make income seem much higher than it really is.</p>

<p>As for accepting scholarships from safeties. Generally, you hear back from ED schools in Dec. Typically you don’t have to accept scholarships from safeties that early. If so, you can always request an extention.</p>

<p>Are you CERTAIN that his financial safeties are completely affordable? Will his merit scholarships cover enough that the remaining costs can be paid by you?</p>

<p>*Can he apply ED to his favorite and drop it due to the financial clause in favor of one of his safeties if the finances come with a bit of loans?</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>Yes, he can drop it if the FA pkg isn’t acceptable. However, your comment about “bit of loans”…almost all schools will put loans in FA pkgs. Only a small number don’t put any.</p>

<p>It’s not unusual for an FA pkg to have $3k-7k in loans (including Perkins), 2500 in work-study, etc. And, it’s not usual for CSS schools to include a “student contribution” from a summer job.</p>

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<p>Just have to ask…what is the matter with getting a “bit of loans” in your student’s financial aid package. There are not that many schools that give need based aid with NO LOANS. Most include at least the Stafford loans…$5500 for freshman…that is what I would consider “a bit of loans”…and if the school package was otherwise acceptable, I would have my STUDENT take these loans (Staffords are in the STUDENT name).</p>

<p>Sybbie is absolutely correct. You will not have the ability to compare financial aid offers if your child applies ED. What you WON’T know is whether that ED offer is indeed the best one…it just might be.</p>

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<p>^^^ Yes, it’s a Profile school and they would be hard pressed to put deductions back in as there essentially hasn’t been as much income due to the economy - period. We even ended up with a tax refund this year after paying in taxes for years (personal, not business - the business still paid its share, but it was mighty low compared to other years). The economy was starting to look much better the early part of this year, but it’s looking horrid now. It’s actually a little scary, but time will tell.</p>

<p>I believe his safeties will be affordable. We’re ok with 5-7K in loans annually and he’ll almost certainly be doing work study - as is his brother. If the economy ever does pick up before we lose the business, we ought to be able to pay off his loans for him. If not, that amount is handle-able monthly, though I suspect he’ll need a gap year or two before med school in that case (something he may do anyway).</p>

<p>What I don’t want to see is 10K+ in loans annually. At this point in the economy, I doubt we would even qualify for extra parent loans.</p>

<p>With the scholarships I’m a little concerned about the order of how he might have to accept them. Oldest son’s first choice school required a decision about scholarship money (not acceptance, but scholarship $$) before some other schools he had been accepted to even had their scholarship competitions. Fortunately, it was his first choice and the money was enough for him (with work study, some loans, and a summer job). But if a later school had been his first choice, that would have been a tough decision to make. I wonder how common that is. I’ve heard of similar issues with other parents and other schools. It seems the schools can make their acceptance day May 1st - ditto that with need based aid - but for “winners” of top scholarship types of things they tend to want an earlier commitment to accept the scholarship? I don’t have a lot of experience, but it’s enough to have me concerned as this guy currently has 6 or 7 schools he’s looking at applying to. I consider two of them potential “safeties.” </p>

<p>He hasn’t ordered his schools by preference yet, but really likes one for sure. Personally, I’m fairly certain he can handle the academics at a top school and would thoroughly enjoy himself in the process. He’d have loads of opportunities (mainly research) that we just don’t have around here and it would be in a smaller (but not tiny) environment that he absolutely enjoys.</p>

<p>One big “problem” with the safety he visited is they offer credit to those in his cc courses who got a “C.” He saw the students in his classes who got a “C” and saw their lack of effort in getting the grade. He said he felt they almost had to work to get a grade that low. He got an easy A and thought the class would be more difficult. He wants to be somewhere where kids want to get As on a regular basis (he knows there will be those at any school). He’s never really been with “peers” academically (plenty of peers socially) and was drooling at the thought of being able to do so when we visited his top choice. At the safety school he visited pretty much ALL the kids raved about the sports scene and the city life. None raved about the academics. He came away saying he could go there and make it work, but I know he’d love the other environment better.</p>

<p>We’ll see what happens.</p>

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<p>My understanding is that putting back deductions has little to do with the economy. It has MORE to do with the actual deductions taken. Some business owners, for example, deduct things that folks who are employed actually have to pay for in full (e.g. cars, computers, cell phone use, ISP, etc). Some schools add these expenses that are deducted back IN to your income. It’s just what they do. It has nothing whatsoever to do with your business and it’s bottom line at the end of the year.</p>

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<p>This is not unusual, actually it is the norm not matter what school you attend. A C is usually the minimum grade that you can get and receive transfer credit. You only need to have an overall C average to obtain a degree. I know at CUNY, as long as you get a D at another CUNY school, you can transfer the credit. </p>

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<p>It happens at the safety school. It does not necessarily happen at the big name schools. For example at Princeton, you can only give A’s to one third of the class. This means that 2/3rds of the class, not matter how accomplished will not receive A’s. Contrary to one’s thoughts about the rampant grade inflation that takes place at the Ivies, the majority of the students are not graduating with 4.0GPAs.</p>

<p>Trust and beleive that there are students at big name schools who graduate with a C average. The degree will still say “Big Name School.”</p>

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<p>One big “problem” with the safety he visited is they offer credit to those in his cc courses who got a “C.” He saw the students in his classes who got a “C” and saw their lack of effort in getting the grade.</p>

<p>that’s not just a policy of safeties. Virtually any school will give you credit for a C in a college level class. Do you really think top schools don’t accept a C??? Do you think they make kids “do over” C’s? No they don’t. Many/most schools will let a kid move to the “next” class with a C…got a C in Calc I? you can move to Calc II. That’s a common policy.</p>

<p>I’ve heard this comment before and I scratch my head. I guess some people think that students at top schools don’t ever have Cs on their report cards. Do they think degrees are only awarded to those who graduate with 3.0+ and no C’s???</p>

<p>I think the problem is that people ask these questions at safeties, and never think to ask the same questions at match/reaches because they assume that the answer would be different.</p>

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<p>*He wants to be somewhere where kids want to get As on a regular basis (he knows there will be those at any school). *</p>

<p>I don’t know what your son’s major will be, but if he’s going into a challenging major, then his classmates will be those kids. Perhaps, the first semester or so may have some kids who are flakey, but those kids will quickly change to something easier.</p>

<p>Too many people look at the middle quartile ACT/SAT at safeties and think those kids are going to be my classmates. If you’re in a challenging major, that’s not likely. Highs stats kids are NOT equally distributed amongst all majors…they tend to be largely found in about 8-10 majors…engineering, bio, chem, physics, math, business, some of the very challenging humanities, etc. A low stats kid who tries those majors is often quickly overwhelmed and moves on. </p>

<p>And…as for “used to getting As”…have you checked the GPA distribution of many incoming frosh at various schools? It’s not usual for many schools to have 50%+ of frosh coming in with high GPAs.</p>

<p>Even at TOP, TOP schools, you’re going to have some classmates who don’t get A’s. Mosey over to the Pre-med forum here on CC and you’ll see some upset kids at TOP schools who have sub 3.0 GPAs. There’s a reason why over half of the pre-med students (even at elites) change their career-goals within the first 4 semesters. As soon as their GPA’s drop too low for med school chances, they change career directions.</p>

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<p>In reading this, I’ve had many questions answered, so my thanks.</p>

<p>I just wonder why D3 coaches ask the kids to apply ED when FA is an issue.
S2 is being recruited to a great LAC that offers everything he’s looking for, including a coach who he seems to like.</p>

<p>That said, I don’t feel great going ED. Coach will have to understand or get a better idea of FA pkg prior to submitting application.</p>

<p>When did applications get so nuts?!</p>

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<p>Simple, because the coaches want to “lock in” their players so they can plan the squads, etc. ED tells them quicker whether a kid is in or out.</p>