Ethnicity in College.

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<p>And they don’t have to. I don’t see the problem here.</p>

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<p>Not necessarily. However, some kids just become too obsessed with only the academic side of things. Taking all AP classes, etc. takes a large chunk of commitment and time, and to be frank, a lot of Asian applicants with “perfect” objective credentials are rather boring in terms of personality. That’s not to say that academic credentials are proportional with blandness of personality; among my Asian friends, some are more interesting and smarter than some who are not as impressive academically yet also more forgettable to an AO in terms of personality. Now, anyone can have a boring or “nerdy” personality, and I know a lot of people of different races who are at a disadvantage in holistic admissions, but Asian-American parents, more than other ethnicities, have a tendency to push their kids to fit this mold. I’m a “high-achieving” Asian and I think I can really stand out, which is harder for some people to do when they have the same credentials as many others and no memorable personality to convey in their essays.</p>

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Race does have nothing to do with holistic admissions; personality does. It’s hardly a desirable personality trait to be obsessed with getting into top universities. Just my two cents.</p>

<p>“Race does have nothing to do with holistic admissions; personality does.”</p>

<p>I have nothing else to say. Good luck to you in your fantasy land.</p>

<p>^Haha thanks. I refuse to blame my race, or anyone else’s, or the fact that such a distinction as race exists, whatever my college admissions results turn out to be. Even though it’s not possible, I hope everyone will get into their school of choice and put this silly argument behind them :)</p>

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Positive attitudes are always the way to go. :)</p>

<p>… i can’t believe some people</p>

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<p>Apparently somebody isn’t getting it.</p>

<p>Holistic reviews were first mentioned to point out that college admissions is not purely about SAT scores. That has nothing to do with race. What aren’t you understanding? That doesn’t mean saving space for diversity, that means taking into account EACH applicant’s story and taking into account their scores in the context of their environments. Applicants are people first, not numbers.</p>

<p>They don’t use the word holistic as an excuse for racial diversity. Holistic admissions help EVERYBODY. If not, the white and asians admitted would be the ones with the highest scores and the rest of the applications would be thrown out - save for the minority ones to fill in the quotas according to you. If that’s how it worked they wouldn’t need admissions officers. </p>

<p>I guess bitterness is blinding. I do better than 80% of the kids at Bowdoin. Still think I didn’t earn my spot? You’re making yourselves look pathetic. There are asians and white people who get into ivies. Just because diversity makes your application look a bit glossier to the adcom, it doesn’t guarantee acceptance.</p>

<p>You should be more confident in your own abilities. </p>

<p>PS. OP You do realize that complaining about AA but not recruited athletes underscores your underlying racism, right? What kind of intellectual diversity does the hockey goalie offer that a minority student can’t?</p>

<p>PSS mrlaurence, the fact that you took the time to post that hand-in-face image shows how pathetic you are ;)</p>

<p>It’s copied and pasted. Took less than 30 seconds.</p>

<p>NO REALLY? NO KIDDING!!! thanks sherlock holmes. the point was you actually had to find that… who keeps things like that on their computer…</p>

<p>I guess some people probably do. I, on the other hand, Googled it.</p>

<p>“Holistic admissions” is an ideal that becomes a reality at schools like Amherst, which receive no more than 8,000 applications a year.</p>

<p>At schools like Harvard, which receive more than 35,000 applications a year… Where does the time and the manpower come from to give each and every applicant a fair, “big picture” read?</p>

<p>Please remain objective and critical.</p>

<p>By rich I meant upper middle class. 90000+ dollars in income for the family. Yes most Asian Americans meet this criteria. Most of the people arguing for race as a criteria here have not provided any good points but are just tired of these subject. Sure race is not the only thing but why does it have to make your application “glossier”?</p>

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<p>Median household income in 2009 for Asian American households is $65,469 ($65,073 for Asian American alone or in combination households).</p>

<p>[HINC-0–Table</a> of Contents](<a href=“http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032010/hhinc/new02_000.htm]HINC-0--Table”>http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032010/hhinc/new02_000.htm)
[HINC-02–Part</a> 7](<a href=“http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032010/hhinc/new02_007.htm]HINC-02--Part”>http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032010/hhinc/new02_007.htm)
[HINC-02–Part</a> 8](<a href=“http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032010/hhinc/new02_008.htm]HINC-02--Part”>http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032010/hhinc/new02_008.htm)</p>

<p>If AA doesn’t lower the bar for URMs, exactly what does it do?</p>

<p>Going back to the original post: As everyone has pointed out, NO ONE with a <2 GPA and 1200 SATs will get into a top 50 school. </p>

<p>That having been said, consider this: Let’s say that an Asian student’s imaginary ‘spot’ gets taken by someone who is an URM with slightly lower numbers than them (Ex. 3.8 GPA and 2100 SATs as opposed to the Asian applicant with a 4.0 and 2200 SATs). </p>

<p>The fact is, the URM will likely benefit much more from being exposed to the intellectual environment that exists at top schools than the higher qualified applicant will (in the case that the URM is not from an affluent family/didn’t attend a private school). The highly qualified Asian applicant will probably do well no matter where he/she goes.</p>

<p>“the URM will likely benefit much more from being exposed to the intellectual environment that exists at top schools than the higher qualified applicant will (in the case that the URM is not from an affluent family/didn’t attend a private school).”</p>

<p>That’s the best you can come up with?</p>

<p>Love it. I’m going to have to tell my brother and sister we have to send our college degrees back because we are ■■■■■■■■ meth-heads.</p>

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<p>No, not fact. The fact is the Asian applicant worked harder to get accepted into the school, and therefore deserves to be admitted. The URM should only be accepted if he or she was dirt poor, rather than merely “not affluent”. A middle class student can easily get a 4.0 and 2200 if he or she worked hard enough.</p>

<p>That being said, are you saying the URM would not do well wherever he or she goes?</p>

<p>The person who wrote the post unfortunately weakened his argument by claiming that minorities get into Ivy Schools with a 2.0 and super low SATs.</p>

<p>But his complaints about affirmative action have some truth.</p>

<p>For example, there is a thread on CC today where an hispanic kid going to a private high school, which he says is a boarding school, is asking if he will be receiving preferential admissions treatment because he is an hispanic.</p>

<p>While few would deny that kids from truly disadvantaged socio-economic backgrounds should be given preference, because they had a much higher mountain to climb, I am not sure that an hispanic kid going to a private boarding school should be given preference over an asian who grew up in a dangerous inner city neighborhood.</p>

<p>So the person who posted the instant thread, by mentioning a 2.0 gpa, opened himself up to criticism that is not really relevant to the issue at hand.</p>

<p>In America, do we really want a college admissions process where all the asians and jews are put into one pot, because they are over-represented, regular whites put into a second pot, and minorities put into a third pot?</p>

<p>I’ve said a gazillion times on this site that “building” a college class is a bit like casting a high school musical. No director is simply going to cast the best X # of singers/dancers/actors. If (s)he did that, she might end up with too few males, too many sopranos, and leads that can’t work together.</p>

<p>Instead, you’re competing with others who are qualified to play a particular role. The more roles you can play, the more likely it is that you’ll get a part. </p>

<p>Say, the director is going to cast the musical “Guys and Dolls.” There might be 20 girls with beautiful soprano voices vying for the part of Sarah Brown. Nicely Nicely, the character who sings “Sit Down You’re Rocking the Boat,” is usually a plump guy with a deep voice. There may be only two or three–if that–plump guys with good deep voices who try out for the part. So, the odds that any of them will get to be in the show are much higher than those that one of the 20 girls vying for the part of Sarah Brown will. </p>

<p>This is just reality.</p>

<p>There are fewer African-Americans vying for spaces in top colleges. Thenumber of African-Americans with 1300+ (out of 1600) SAT scores is fairly small. So, just like the plump guy with the deep voice trying for the role of Nicely Nicely, they’ve got better odds. </p>

<p>But so do some other folks. It’s certainly true of athletes, particularly in the “helmet” sports. It’s also true of legacies. It’s true of developmental cases and celebrity kids. The desire for geographic diversity means the kid from Wyoming has a better chance at HYPS than the kid from Manhattan. However, the kid from a public high school in Boston has a better “shot” at Harvard than any other top college because Harvard gives a “boost” to those kids in admissions. </p>

<p>Someone brought up Obama’s kids. Obama’s kids would get in because they are Obama’s kids. Chelsea Clinton is a smart young woman who had great grades and high scores. She still had a heck of a lot better odds of getting into top colleges than she would have had if she’d had the same record and not been the D of POTUS. </p>

<p>Asian Americans have the bad luck to be the sopranos of college admissions. If you lump them all together, there are just a heck of a lot of them. (Some colleges DO break Asians down into different categories as reality is again that Filipinos and Hmong are NOT over represented. Very few colleges give any sort of “boost” to Cuban-Americans because they ARE over represented. )</p>

<p>More Asian Americans should do things to enable themselves to play additional roles. There was an Asian American kid from my offspring’s high school who was a star swimmer. He got into lots of top colleges that rejected many of this classmates with better grades and higher scores. There aren’t a heck of a lot of Asian American swimmers. There aren’t a heck of a lot of good swimmers who are willing to go to college in New England. </p>

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<p>I think that’s only true in a limited sense. Traditionally, higher education was the way to advance in Asian society. If you wanted to go to a top college, it was all about the test results. Going to a top college was sometimes the only way to get desirable jobs.
Some Asian Americans carried that mind set over to the US. That doesn’t mean that they necessarily valued learning as an end in and of itself more than others do. It was just the way you got ahead. </p>

<p>It’s somewhat analogous to the way some segments of the African American population view sports and performing arts. These were the paths of advancement that were open to them. </p>

<p>Look, I know it’s tough for the Asian American kids. I watched while kids who arrived here at the age of 10 and have parents who speak limited English and can’t read or write it, got rejected by colleges that accepted African American kids whose parents are doctors and lawyers with worse grades and scores. They were understandably bitter. I don’t think criticizing their “personalities” is going to make them feel better.</p>

<p>And I had to laugh when someone suggested that “holistic” admissions were begun to help “everyone.” Don’t the schools teach history any more? “Holistic” admissions were introduced shortly after the intro of the SAT when colleges realized that if admissions were based on grades and SAT scores they would end up being “too Jewish.” </p>

<p>There are several reasons why colleges should exercise affirmative action. One reason is so our young people actually get to know people who are different than they are. There was an interesting study of racism at UCal-Berkeley a long time ago now. They questioned lots of students about their attitudes. Two groups of students were noticeably less bigoted than other students–athletes and musicians. It isn’t rocket science to figure out why–students in these groups were much more likely to actually know and interact with students of other races. They were more likely to see racism in action hurting people they knew and trusted. It’s been a generation since we were warned against the creation of “two Americas,” but it’s still a reality. </p>

<p>While every African American I know gets annoyed about it–with good reason–reality is that they ARE an “educational experience” for many of their white classmates. All those highly qualified white and Asian students at top colleges are more likely to benefit from meeting some highly qualified African American students than from meeting one more highly qualified Asian American. (Believe it nor not, “The Cosby Show” had a major impact on the racial attitudes of a generation of Americans because the Huxtables were the only exposure a fair number of white and Asian Americans had to educated, upper middle class African-Americans. )</p>

<p>And, then the best way to “tame” any group is to give it a place at the table. The election of Barack Obama has helped this nation by helping to convince African Americans that the “system” can work. A lot of African Americans who had never registered to vote did so in order to vote for Obama. And a lot of African Americans were stunned when they realized that Obama got a slightly higher percentage of the white vote than John Kerry did. We’ve got a LONG way to go, but Obama’s election did improve race relations. </p>

<p>So, if you want to convince African Americans that the system does work then they darn well better see some African American doctors, lawyers, judges, engineers, teachers, etc. --not just basketball players and musicians. </p>

<p>That is, by the way, why white military officers overwhelmingly support the use of affirmative action in admissions to military academies. I don’t think most people think of military officers --of any race–as flaming liberals. They do, however, recognize that the military isn’t going to work if a “majority minority” enlisted group sees an almost all white officer corps. And, young white officers who have never known a single African American well may find they have a hard time leading their men and women. For many white cadets having a commanding officer who is NOT white will be a formative experience. Surveys have shown that white officers recognize that the military academies MUST have a substantial number of URMs and they support affirmative action to achieve it. </p>

<p>So, the reasons for affirmative action are complex. And, yes, sometimes the results are unfair to individuals. Denying that to the individuals who have been hurt isn’t going to convince them that they are “wrong” or didn’t get in because they lacked “personality.” We’ve basically got to say that sometimes the system does things for the sake of the greater good which hurt individuals and that, in the long run, our nation will be better off if its leadership reflects its diversity and that’s not going to happen until the student bodies at top colleges reflect it.</p>

<p>And, of course, in the US having to settle for a top 50 school rather than a top 20 school isn’t really going to ruin anyone’s life.</p>